[earthworm77]

Ok, since I've been home for the last two months, I've been engrossed in watching the History channel. Last night I stayed up to watch about 6hrs of documentaries on Rommel. Now, being on Vicodin, I fell asleep during the final episode in which Rommel was said to betray Hilter. What happened? I know Rommel withdrew from Tobruck because of the lack of reinforcements he didn't want to have 100,000 men slaughtered on his watch. I know Hitler ordered him to re-engage but he did not. Was this the betrayal? I also know that Rommel didn't agree with the ethnic cleansing and views of Hitler. He was a soldier who waged war against soldiers, not civilians. Although he was the enemy, he was well respected by his adversaries. Despite the German propoganda, he really was a great commander. Had the Germans been able to re supply themselves, North Africa would have fallen to Rommel. I think Montgomery won North Africa largely by accident and due to US tanks donated by T.R.

 

[Lpbassman]

We really really really need to get you back out on the water dont we?
Dont feel bad Earthy. In the past month I watched, We Were Soldiers, Harry Potter & the Chamber of Secrets and Star Wars-Attack of the Clones at least a dozen times each. I can now quote the dialogue along with the actors.
Where is Spring when you really need it? LOL

 

[OnceBitten]

Rommel lost in Africa and returned to command an army in France. However when the plot against Hilter failed, (the bomb in the briefcase) he was implicated. While he wasn't an active participant in the attempt to killer Hitler, he was viewed by the plotters as a possible replacement who would be respected by the allies and could sue for peace. He may or may not have known about the plot in advance, we'll never know.

So anyways, they capture and torture the plotters, Rommel's name comes up, so Himmler (and Hitler) order him put to death for treason. They show up and surround his house, and inform him if he gives himself up, they'll spare his family. He is given a few minutes to say goodbye, gets in the car with the Gestapo, and drives off.

A few miles down the road the car pulls over and he is given poison to swallow. He dies and is then rushed to a local hospital where he is declared dead by natural causes. The Nazi party announces a great hero has died and he is buried with full honors. The truth comes out only after the war.

Thus the fall of Rommel.

Fred

I was a history major, can you tell?

 

[Senkosam]

Craig, read The Desert Fox if you get a chance. Rommel was a soldier's soldier, beloved by all his men. Hitler rode on his coat tails as long as retreat was not an option, but Rommel knew that to retreat strategically was to be able to fight another day. Hitler probably couldn't share the limelight or the public's admiration of this 5' 2" master-of-the-infantry.

He set up Normandy defenses and his actions would have resulted in far more allied lives if he hadn't voluntarily taken poison rather than die dishonorably. I think Rommel's suicide turned the heads of many generals, some of whom tried to assassinate Hitler rather than have him sacrifice all, foolishly. (Can you imagine the feeling of realizing you followed a maniac and killed for him and that your country's near-future was looking mighty dark?)

According to the American version of Montgomery, Monty was too timid, hated to lose, strategically rigid and a publicity hound (like Patton and Mac Arthur, both of who had far more talent). According to The Desert Fox, Monty had many opportunities to destroy Rommel in N. Africa, but Rommel's genius of using nature's forces, 88's, land mines, surprise and troop movements to deceive reconnaisance, kept Monty at bay. Monty was only able to nip at Rommel's heels back across Africa, even though Rommels's forces were deprived of critical supplies, especially gas.

John Toland's books about WW2 are fascinating, though they give a somewhat contemporary veiw of a few things that I disagree with, like the dropping of the bomb. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and The Rising Sun, are just two of his that I read twice.

Makes you think of the mistakes that cost the lives of thousands, made by a certain few generals on both sides, and that sometimes ignorance is bliss when following orders. Chaos is fine when you're on a rollercoaster, but finding out the rollercoaster left the tracks a minute ago, must feel like free falling in a different dimension. I guess that's war. Somehow men like Rommel could work within chaos and come out without a scratch.
As far as I know, he never joined the Nazi party.

 

[Bink]

I watched the first two hours and found it very interesting.

 

[earthworm77]

(Can you imagine the feeling of realizing you followed a maniac and killed for him and that your country's near-future was looking mighty dark?)

Ummm......I work for Bloomberg.....so yes, I know the feeling.

 

[Senkosam]

Whoooa! Where did that come from? Methinks Bloomy is not a public service employee's best friend, but then again neither is George P., considering how tight funding is in Albany.

 

[Bass Rat]

(

Ummm......I work for Bloomberg.....so yes, I know the feeling.

Classic

 

[Paul_M]

Key part of WW2 may have been Rommel's weekend where he missed the 1st 2 days of the Normandy invasion cause he was in Germany. He wouldn't have made the mistakes that were made in his absence.

 

[Senkosam]

Paul, maybe it wouldn't have mattered. No one dared do anything without Adolfs approval and as the story goes, no one had the balls to awaken da fuher out of his beauty rest the day of the invasion. :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:

Of course, given the German and Japapanese technolgical advancements that were on the edge of modern warfare (jet engine, ICBMs, atomic bombs etc.) and the fact that the morons at the top stopped their development and production en masse, may well have prevented the creation of a New Berlin as our White House, the Swaztika as our national emblem and Skinheads deciding who stays and who goes!

 

[earthworm77]

it is amazing to me how in the 40's, our country could fight a war on 2 fronts... against all odds and win both. Now, clearly this country is hands down the world super power with all of the most modern equipment and we can't find 2 lousy arabs in the desert. what the F is that all about?

 

[Senkosam]

Conventional armies make good targets, but towelheads have too many holes to crawl into and the locals are too afraid they won't live to spend the reward money if they reveal locations. Even though Sodomy Hussein is out of power, either his name still provokes terror or quite a few want him back in power to shiit on the Shiites. Plus, don't you realize how much fun it is for the unemplyed to blow up people for a cause? (Strange, but isn't that what lead up to WWII!?)

The balence of power now allows only unconventional warfare with nongovernmental, subversive and totally-voluntary militias and homicidal groups. There is no such thing as a draft in Osama's army, but just soldiers of Allah that must kill to make a point and relive ancient history.

 

[earthworm77]

What is it going to take for our gov't to target the countries who harbor these people. Another 911? How is it Al Quaida can target countries that allegedly support them and nothing happens in retaliation? If this a war on terrorism, our gov't should go balls to the wall. Make the lawless lands of Afghanistan and Iraq a nuclear playground. Why worry about being politically correct? If these people had the capability to detonate a device on our soil they would....that may be in the not so distant future. They already hate our way of life, even the countries not involved in the middle east and our M/E allies...Saudi Arabia....so it is not like we are trying to appease anyone. Take the terror to the terrorists. They will not go away otherwise.

 

[JohnnyL]

Look at my posting

I agree with you guys... if we don't go all out, withion 20 years something catastrophic is going to happen in this country (my guess is NYC included) and then what?

We go after them again? NO... we need to GET THEM NOW.

I was saying this to my padre the other night, but with the world's greatest military might, the most advanced technology, and the world's greatest commando units, how is it that we can't find OSAMA (Saddam is an afterthought to me).

I'll tell you why... b/c we've become a bunch of saps.

In Tora Bora, we had UBL cornered, unquestionably corenenred. And what did GW do? He sends in the northern alliance to go geth him... I am a big GW fan, but what the heck is that?

That's like sending in the French on teh first wave of D-Day.
Years ago, people died for this country; and I do believe that military folks (trust me, my best friend is in the amry) would want to go get UBL. But because this country has had to worry about lawsuits and people crying etc, we send in some second rate military band to get the #1 world fugitive.

Isna't that when we should pull out Delta, Seals, Air Force Recon, all the STOPS? Wouldn't you be s'n your pants if you saw those gusy coming up your mountain... I 'd be...

Don't know if I'd be as scared if I saw some rag-pikers coming up.

GW, and trust me I'm a huge fan and conservative, has sold out. We were going to go balls to the wall and we didn't... thus, UBL is still out there plotting... meanwhile, we know where he is generally... WHY DON"T WE GO IN AND GET HIM!!!!!!????????

 

[OnceBitten]

Well, those "rag pikers" did manage to fight the Soviet Union to a draw. They also kicked the British Empire's ass twice, in both Afgan wars. The Monguls didn't fare much better and even Alexander the Great swore the Afgans gave him the most brutal fights he'd ever endured. They also gave him an arrow in the side and cursed him with a crazy Afgan wife, Roxanne, who tormented him up until his death.

If your interested in a good book, get "JIHAD" out of the library. It's written by a former SAS operator who did some work over there in the 80's. With it's dry British humor and compelling story, it's a really good read.

Fred

 

[JohnnyL]

Well...

They only fought the Soviets with American funding and SAMs... without those, they would've gotten reamed. The Stingers we supplied turned the tide of that war (too abd they're still floating around). Who do you think BUILT Tora Bora? We Did. Funded by the good old US.

Have heard good things about that book; I recommend the Hunt for Bin Laden,and the Cell... both great books on terrorism and 9/11.

As for getting UBL, I'd still be way more comfortable if we went after him than the Afghans.

 

[earthworm77]

Who was in charge at Stalingrad? Was it Paus? He too was given the no retreat order. He stayed and perished. Now that was a brutal front in which the Germans seriously underestimated several key things:
Firstly, the battle went on much longer than the Germans thought. They felt that it would be an easy victory over a severely under equipped enemy. Mistake one, what the Russians lacked in technology and equipment, they made up for in sheer numbers of bodies they put in the battle.
Anyone see Enemy at the Gates, which was a fantastic movie about Russian Sniper Alexai Vassilliov? you saw the soldiers standing in line to get weapons as the Stuka dive bombers are straffing the transports. They gave out one rifle to ever third soldier and a magazine of bullets to each. One soldier says were's my gun? The sergeant replies, Grab his when he dies. Oh Ok, theres a positive outlook. Not if......when! But that was the way it was.
Next the time of year was crucial. The battle was planned to be fought in the warm months, such a mop up job could surely be completed in that time before the horrific Winter. That was mistake 2. The Germans never intended to fight into the cold but were forced to because of these tactical blunders. They were under equipped for Winter combat and screwed up their supply lines so badly that they in a sense abandoned their own troops on the Eastern Front. As in North Africa, their Panzer divisions ran out of gas. The German morale plummeted and the battle lost. Had they concentrated their efforts on one front at a time......perhaps North Africa, they would have been successful. Amazing how our hand was forced into WWII in the Pacific with Pearl Harbor, a theatre we wouldn't likely have entereed until our Pacific outposts were attacked...Wake Island, Guadal Canal, Midway. Yamamoto...not Gary, commented after the Pearl harbor attack...." I fear we may have awoken a sleeping giant" Man was he right...I'm sure he didn't envision those three big mushroom clouds either.

 

[OnceBitten]

Close, Stalingrad was Van Paulus.

Earthy, that movie was based on the book "Stalingrad". Read it! As good as that movie was, the book puts it to shame. The huberis of the Germans versus the desperation and tanacity of the Russians is the underlying theme. As is the utter disregard of both armies for the lives of thier own men.

After you read the book you'll be just shocked how both armies conducted themselves. Talk about brutal!

If I could find my copy, I'd send it to you.

Enjoy your holidays guys, I'm outta here.
:beerchug:
Fred

 

[Senkosam]

Amazing how our hand was forced into WWII in the Pacific with Pearl Harbor, a theatre we wouldn't likely have entereed until our Pacific outposts were attacked

Considering the fact that U.S. merchant marine shipping was under u-boat attack, I don't think the U.S. could have stayed out for long. Britain was considered an ally, though we were neutral, and the tonnage of U.S. materials sent by ship was enormous.
Too much territory acquired by the axis, I'm sure, caused deep concern and that was just a matter of time before they pushed, we shoved. It's too bad we had to get in bed with Stalin (Hitler's other half and Sadam's idol), in order to make Germany fight a two front war.

If Germany and Hitler had been able to last past 1945, would we have dropped the bomb in Europe, after having demonstrated it's devestation in Japan? I wonder. I don't buy the contemporary idea (put forth mostly by the Japenese) that it was a racial thing. Hell, bayoneting Chinese and Korean babies was a racial thing, so let's call a wok a wok, and enough of the pseudoinnocence.

 

[TVal]

Originally posted by earthworm77
Germans seriously underestimated several key things:
Firstly, the battle went on much longer than the Germans thought. They felt that it would be an easy victory over a severely under equipped enemy. Mistake one, what the Russians lacked in technology and equipment, they made up for in sheer numbers of bodies they put in the battle.
[/B]

Substitute Americans for Germans and Iraq for Russians and it starts to sound very familiar. Our superior technology is of little use against a gurrilla army that blends into the occupied population. We learned this in Vietnam, the British learned this during the American Revolution. Saddam was no fool. Instead of seeing his army wiped out in a conventional battle that they had no chance of winning, he tells every soldier to take his weapon home, along with a few rocket propelled grenades, wait a while till the Americans think they have won, and then begin a long drawn out terror assault. A chopper shot down or a Hummer attacked every few days gets alot more new coverage than a big battle thats over quickly.


So unless we decide to just nuke the whole of Iraq and Afganastian, we better be willing to face a long and bloody battle.
Tim