Posted by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:

Tournament Rule Question

I was watching a Bassmaster program a couple days ago and observed that an angler was penalized four ounces for bringing in a dead fish... He subsequently lost the tournament by two ounces.

Anyway, not being a tournament fisherman, I admit that I'm not up to snuff on the rules. I was wondering, could he have culled that dead fish?

Let's assume he has a five fish limit but his smallest fish is dead. He catches a sixth fish that is bigger then the dead one... can he toss the dead fish back in the water in lieu of the larger live one?

I paged through the New York reg book to see if the state might say something about this but I didn't see anything.

Just curious with too much ice, snow and cold around me...

Disclaimer:
Not reaching for an ethical debate here. Just wondering what the rule is... nothing more, nothing less.

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:

You cannot cull a dead fish. Penalty for culling a dead fish is disqualification.

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Posted by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:

Thanks Nick...

I figured that's what the rule would be but I never saw any mention of it then started wondering...

I need to go fishing

Posted by Paul_M on 2003 AM:

Generally this is not an expressly written tx rule, but comes under state regs which must be followed under tx rules. The state reg "wanton waste" statutues; ie deliberately wasting a legally caught fish.

Posted by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:

Paul, Good nugget reg State regulations. However, it is a rule in B.A.S.S. & my own club Outcast Bass Anglers has this rule as well.
We have a 4 oz per fish penalty with a maximum penalty of 16oz per bag.

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Posted by skeeter195 on 2003 AM:

BASS rules are that you can not cull a dead fish.
FLW outdoors rules are that you CAN cull dead fish. During a tournament briefing for an Everstart event I was fishing, some one asked this question and the TX directors answer was, yes you can cull a dead fish, the turtles have to eat to. I and many other people in the room were shocked. This is a rule in all FLW outdoors events. FLW, Everstart, BFL, etc.

Posted by bink on 2003 AM:

this is one rule I think gets broken the most in club type events and even to some extent higher levels. You have a fish that has been rolling over on you all day with a terrible loss of color,you get your 6th fish "Grab the trolling motor will you" go to the livewell and slip your dead fish off the back of the boat never to be seen again. I even reported a guy I was fishing with in a Draw T who culled a floater without even hiding it just said something to the effect of glad to get rid of that fing dead Smallie, The response of the T director was It helped "The food chain" and to just drop it.

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Posted by CBowes on 2003 AM:

I'm shocked that you can cull dead fish in FLW tournies. I know about the bad weigh-in practices at Cayuga in 2002 and now this. I bet a number of guys didn't cull dead fish because they assumed that was not permitted? I think anglers who fish these events should work to get this changed if it became common knowledge it could do a number on our preception among the general public.

I'm proud to say Salt City Bassmasters does not allow culling dead fish. The penalty of 2 oz. is also enforced. I personally watched my partner at Oneida last year get burned by this rule. He was forced to throw back several fish larger than the 1 # dead smallie he had in the well with the other 4 2+ponders. Cost him about 5 spots in the tournament but he would never even considered throwing it back.
Chris

Posted by skeeter195 on 2003 AM:

A rule is a rule. If somebody culls a dead fish in a tx when they should not have, then that person should be dq'd no questions asked.
The thing with FLW may not be as bad as it seems. Throwing a dead fish back will supply food for the "chain". Also those tx's are big with lots of boats and lots of people watching the weigh-ins. The FEWER dead fish the public sees the better. With 200 boats in a tx there is bound to be some mortality. I do not agree with FLW but can see their point somewhat. I just hope that people do not handle their fish badly knowing that they could be culled if need be. The dead fish penalty in FLW is 8 ounces.

Posted by Charlie on 2003 AM:

As most of you know, I returned my Operation BASS membership because of their sponsor restrictions with anglers who make the cut for any BFL, FLW or Everstart tournament. I also stopped fishing with them because of the weigh-in horror that took place in 1999 when Tom LaVictorie Snr and myself were waist deep in water trying to revive over 100 4lb and over largemouth and smallmouth left "floating" in Cayuga! Those fished died for no other reason than the tournament director failed to supply the required chemicals and oxygen to preserve those fish on such a hot day! In the write up after the tourny, they showed "no dead fish" ! I lost it and wrote to Operation BASS... You guessed it, I never received a reply!

This new revelation of culling dead bass only confirms that I did the right thing with that organization.

Tight Lines!

Charlie

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Posted by bink on 2003 PM:

If I may charlie anyone who is fishing in T Summer should already be carrying thier OWN chemicals. The thought of 100 Bass of any size floating around like that makes me sick and if only 2 of you cared enough to try to help these fish that says something about your fellow fishermen that did nothing. Without saying names I have been to large weigh ins at T's run by the largest(I think)bass org and seen dead fish or heard guys saying they had dead fish but when you read reports from these events it lists dead fish as none or two at most.

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Posted by Charlie on 2003 PM:

Bink, your correct of course.

I believe that the majority of tournament fishiermen use catch and release formula and I do not doubt that the products were used, however, when a fish is placed into the official tournament bag, the water drains out. The tanks that are set up for the contestants who have fish are usually airated and contain chemicals to again slow down the fish metabolism. Sadly REDMAN/BFL allowed the water to "boil" in 85+ degrees and made no effort to cool it down during a weigh in of over 200 anglers. Because of their lack of co-ordination and strategic planning, many anglers were left with their fish in the boats waiting for bags. Not all bassboats have livewells that continue to run after the big engine is switched off or the boat is in a stationary position. Even fewer have livewells that "re-cycle" water. The major problem with the Cayuga turny is the location of the weigh-in. The parking lot is much higher than the water level, the tournament staff use a long white oversized plastic "drainpipe" that acts as a "chute". The fish slide down and hit the water with some velocity. The damage on the way down the pipe is bad enough as it is in pieces, so when a fish hits a join, scales get ripped out. The shock of hitting warm water from cold or vica versa is also an issue.

Some serious thought and planning HAS to be put into place, or the local authorities will not allow tournaments of that scale on their waters. B.A.S.S. purchased large tanks and a release vessel, Foxwoods did the same. If BFL/REDMAN do not, I can see legistlation from a local government level becoming involved (hey there is money in bass fishing!) and we will then be monitored by the local authorities. It takes only one campaign contributor to start the ball rolling!

Tight Lines!
Charlie

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Posted by Paul_M on 2003 PM:

Charlie,

The problem with Cayuga is the location of the weigh-in at CL State Park not the care of the fish. Mid summer tx's need to be in a much cooler area for the released fish than the entire northern flats or preferably a release boat should be used.

Paul

Posted by Scully on 2003 AM:

a point you need to remember

In B.A.S.S and other large tournament organizations it is illegal to cull a "dead fish". However, the interpretation of this rule can be a bit tricky, and very misleading.

What you or I may consider to be a dead fish, may in the eyes of the tournament director, be perceived as a "live catch" and included in your total weight without penalty.

In a B.A.S.S. event, YOU never claim a dead fish. IF the tournament committee checks a fish THEY consider questionable, the criteria is as follows. The fish in question is held firmly by its lower jaw. If the fish then closes its mouth in response to this stimuli, it is considered by the tournament committee to be "alive". They also look for finn or tail movement of any kind. They ARE NOT interested if the fish will survive after the weigh-in, only that when it was presented to them, it was indeed alive (as they saw it).

Now, faced with this knowledge, how would you approach this situation. You have a small bass, lets say a "squeaker", and it appears to you that this fish will not survive much longer. There is SOME movement, but YOU know this is a "late bass" in all probability. Do you release the fish, or keep it?

Scully

Posted by bink on 2003 AM:

I keep it and have kept them. I know what i feel is right and winning has never been so important to me that I would go against my ethics. if I have fish I know is dead and the T director says it is alive in his opinion than no I will not demand a penalty but I know what he thinks is important and it's not the fish. Of course I dont fish to feed my family and that might make a difference in my views.

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Posted by JPBass on 2003 AM:

Interesting point Ray and indeed a tough call. For me if I can revive the fish and it swims away I release it. If it's floating up top I scoop it back up and take the penalty.

On the other hand I've had fish after the initial introduction to the well go belly up (shock maybe?). But after some aeration and a couple of water changes seemed fine and healthy.

I believe the survival of any fish after an eight hour or so ride in the well is questionable. But with a little effort we should be able to increase their odds.

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Posted by wnybassman on 2003 AM:

Folks need to have a good "livewell management" system under the many different weather conditions we face. I started a thread on this subject last year, and it turned out to be a good one.

Obviously, there are fish that will die on you, no matter what, in the livewell. Some with no apparent cause. I have released small fish (without yet having a limit) in the past that didn't look like they were going to make it. Each time I did it, they swam away on their own, but unlikely to make it for very long.

Organizations also need to have good weigh-in practices, with tanks, ice and chemicals if conditions dictate. BFL also had a huge fish kill this year on Cayuga AGAIN. I understnd this was partially due to insufficiant tanks etc, but also due to lack of traffic control of boats coming out of the water leading to pure gridlock with nobody going anywhere. Bass in livewells out of the water in very warm conditions won't have a chance for extended periods of time. I am not just picking on BFL, cause I'm sure many other organizations suffer from this as well.

Most tx directers look for any movement at all, to declare if a fish is dead or not. If they start trying to determine which fish will, or will not die after release, then a lot of speculation is added to the mix. Movement of the fish is cut and dry, either it does or doesn't. I am not saying whether this system is right or wrong though.

On a side note, I fished a tournament for many years at Black Lake called the Dash For Cash. In that tournament, they DO NOT ALLOW DEAD FISH PERIOD!! to be brought to the scales. Their reasoning was in this day and age, there is absolutely no excuse for bringing a dead fish to the weigh-in. I tend to disagree, because there will be some fish that just will die in the well that will be out of your control. And please tell me, how many dead fish in this tournament get culled??? If you bring them back, you get DQ'd!!

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Posted by JOHN G on 2003 AM:

this is a very revealing thread indeed......now what I wonder is, how has two of these fairly large fishkills at Cayuga by the BFL affected bass fishing to the locals? just a thought..... JOHN G

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2003 PM:

In my club, you can't cull a dead fish...automatic disqualification if you are caught. If it is alive when you release it, that is fine.

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Posted by Scott C on 2003 PM:

I dont gthink I could ever have a fish die....unless it was sudden. I check that livewell every 5 minutes....especially if its hot. Bernie and I had very good success with keeping the water at the same temp or slightly cooler than the lake. We were extremely careful.
Even with the portable wells I have used (made from coolers with bubbler systems) kept fish quite lively when I fished with Frank (Broadbill) ....you have to check on them and monitor what is going on...
Bernie had a nice 3 lbr he released when it looked "slow" in the well......turns out the fish was fine.....it was release and it tore out of there like a torpedo... We both felt that it was more important to revive and save that fish then have it die just so we could weigh it in a TX.

And the EEBA stats on fish were excellent to say the least.

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Posted by Lpbassman on 2003 PM:

Scott,
Like yourself I ALWAYS monitor my livewell several times during the day. I also use bubble tabs. and either "catch& release" or "please release me" in my livewell. I will also "open" the livewell drain a few times which allows the stale and warminig water to exit back into the lake and will refill the wells. One other good tip I can offer is to FREEZE a few 16 or 20oz plastic soda bottles and keep them in your cooler. They are just the ticket to toss into the live well to keep the temperature down. They also help keep your drinks/lunch cool until you are ready to use them.

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Posted by Scott C on 2003 PM:

quote:

One other good tip I can offer is to FREEZE a few 16 or 20oz plastic soda bottles and keep them in your cooler. They are just the ticket to toss into the live well to keep the temperature down. They also help keep your drinks/lunch cool until you are ready to use them.

This is exactly what we do.......

Good tip here.

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Posted by wnybassman on 2003 PM:

John, As far as how those fish kills affected the lake, probably not too much in all reality. The lake is 40,000 acres and has a weedbed in the north end that exceeds 5,000 acres alone. So, a few hundred dead bass aren't going to make alot of difference. BUT, that is not the point as we all know, and in the "public eye" this is a horrible thing to happen. This is why they go to extremes to hide the truth I imagine.

Our state Federation had our points tx there just a couple weeks after the BFL and went to extremes to insure excellent release rates. One individual, from Barge Canal Bassmasters, organized a great "fish care" effort and had a few release boats taking fish to better water for release. This individual won the conservation award of the year for his efforts regarding this. We lost very few fish in this event.

Posted by Charlie on 2003 PM:

An important thing to remember when trying to "cool fish down" is NOT to cool them down too much or too quickly! Ice cubes in the water are fine, but not too many, also remembering that the water that made those ice cubes was treated before you got it and may contain chemicals that would be harmful if introduced in great quantity in a confined area. Also a large bottle of frozen water slamming around in a live well when a bassboat is on plane, would be as deadly as a cement block! I do own some very small blue ice packs that I keep in the ice compartment of my boat. They are flat and I have rigged the inside of my wells with thin pockets that they can be dropped into. This way I am cooling the water without introducing an object or clorinated water!
Tight Lines!
Charlie

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Occasional Tournament Director!
"Come with me and I will make you Fishers of Men"

Posted by Scott C on 2003 PM:

Charlie,
We use pint bottles filled with ice so the fish never get the treated water......and we are only using electric motors.....no planing here. But that IS a useful piece of info for others.

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Posted by JOHN G on 2003 PM:

thanks Noel!!!! JOHN G

Posted by earthworm77 on 2003 AM:

Scott checking the well every few minutes robs the well of cool temperatures. Check every hour or two. With our systems, we won't have problems.

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Posted by Scott C on 2003 AM:

Good point Craig.... I may have exaggerated a bit....but the day I caught the 4 on Forge I probably checked every 10-15 minutes......never had a 4 in a livewell before..... and I certainly didnt want it to die in there.

good advise though.......

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