Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Points vs. Weight: Which is the better judge?

Many of you probably belong to a club or fished tournament trails that award anglers either based on total points (ie. first place angler receives 100 pts, second place 99, etc...), total weight, or a combination of the two.

What do you feel is the most accurate way to determine who the better angler is: Points or Weight.

The reason I ask is I saw a post a while back (believe it was JPBASSMAN) who said something to the effect of "1st in weight, 7th in points would bum me out ".

Which made be think that he was a weight man vs. a point man.

I'm just curious what others think.

Remember there is definitely no right or wrong answers, just your opinions.

cus

Posted by BARRY on 2002 PM:

This is not a response but a question. How could some one be first in weight but seventh in points? What criteria is used to make up a points system? Sorry to answer a question with a question.
Barry

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Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Barry,

Using a 4 tournament example with two guys results to illustrate a point:

Tournament 1: Angler 1. 1st place - 10 lbs.
Angler 2. 5th place - 9 lbs.

Tournament 2: Angler 1. 5 th place - 10 lbs
Angler 2 10 th place - 8 lbs.

Tournament 3: Angler 1. 2nd place - 10 lbs.
Tournament 3: Angler 2 3rd place - 9 lbs.

Tournament 4: Angler 1. 2nd place - 10 lbs.
Angler 2. 1st place - 20 lbs.

Points (if 100 points for first, 99 for 2nd, etc...)

ANGLER 1: Has 394 points and 40 lbs of weight
ANGLER 2: Has 385 points and 46 lbs of weight

Does that explain how an angler can have more weight and less points??

cus

Posted by BARRY on 2002 PM:

Thank you for the explanation. I guess the point system would work on large tournaments where they account for 25 places more or less. As opposed to our club with a very small membership. We basically have a first place winner, all participants are equally recognized. But these are intra-club tourneys. So the competition is not as great. Niether is the pressure Thanks again for clearing it up.
Barry

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 PM:

Cus, I like the points system. It provides a few advantages. It prevents one or two individuals from running away with it early on in the season. Keeps the general membership more interested. It allows guys that can't fish as often a shot. It gives less experienced anglers a better shot.

Barry , I'll try to explain. Let's say we fish a 4 tx season. And there are 3 guys in our club. Tx #1 you catch 20 pounds, MikeD catches15 pounds, I catch 1 pound. first place gets 100 points, second 50 third 25.

Results after 1 Tx
Barry- 20 pounds- 100 points
MikeD-15 pounds- 50 point
Nick- 1 pound-25 points

Tx 2 - Nick first 2 pounds, mikeD second 1.5pounds, Barry third 1 pound

Results after 2 Tx
Barry- 21 pounds 125 points
MikeD-16 pounds- 100 points
Nick- 3 pounds - 125 ponts

Tx 3- Nick 10 pounds, MikeD 5 pounds, Barry 4 pounds

Standings- Points
1st- Nick- 225- 13 pounds
2nd- MikeDNYC- 150- 21 pounds
2nd- Barry- 150 - 25 #

Tx 4 - Barry 10 pounds, Mikednyc 9 pounds, Nick did not fish

Final points standings
Barry- 250- 35 pounds
Nick 250- 13 pounds
Mikey-200- 30 pounds

Although it is a silly analogy, you see with more members & a longer schedule how the point system can keep more members in the running longer.
And after all isn't that what club fishing is all about.

What fun is it if Angler of the year is locked up after a couple of Tx's. Also what if you miss the Tx that is held on the lake that always gives up large weight?

Hope this helped.

November 18,2002 2:09pm

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Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

Mike, I have fished both types of trails and I personally like points better. I feel it creates a more "level" playing field.

With the weight system, it seems as though someone always has one lucky tournament where they get 12 more pounds than anyone else, then the rest of the year it is playing catch up. But, the fact of the matter is he was just 1 place better than second, and should be treated as such.

A points/weight system like the Federation isn't too bad either. We briefly talked about that for our club a couple years ago, but stuck with straight points.

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Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Nick,

Thanks for the response, and do see your points about typically keeping things closer although this year in my club our Angler of the Year locked up a best 4 out of 6 tournament season after 4 tournaments. (Which is not the normal course of events, usually goes down to the wire) He had 2 firsts, a second, and a third in the first 4 events. So unless guys kept pace, they weren't going to catch him.

Was curious though.... what do you think is the better way to determine who the best angler is in a given season, they angler who racks up the most point or the one with the most weight.

I know my thoughts... curious about other's opinions.

cus

Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

To me, the best angler would be the most consitant angler, which means a points system.

For instance, this year in STBM, Harry S was 3rd place in the overall standings, yet he never cashed a check in a points tx (top 4 places). He was just very consistant, and placed just behind the money each time.

Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Noel,

Two very good posts, I surmised from your first one that you are a points man as the way to judge the best angler.

I must confess that I too am a points man, although I do enjoy the NYSBCF's alternating method of points and weight as I feel it motivates some anglers to fishing that last tournament (just in case they catch that 20 lb. bag and leap frog over somebody).

For the most part over the course of a season, if you are in the top 5 in weight, you are typically near the top 5 in points (or vice versa).

Keep it coming...

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

Re: Points vs. Weight: Which is the better judge?

quote:

Originally posted by CUS
The reason I ask is I saw a post a while back (believe it was JPBASSMAN) who said something to the effect of "1st in weight, 7th in points would bum me out ".

That was indeed me. But I'm afraid you misinterperted my thoughts.

I believe points gives a better perspective of the best angler for any given season (consistency vs a couple of good bags).

BUT!! If I had the most weight for a year and only came in 7th (2nd or 3rd I could see) in the points it would certainly "bum me out" a little.

Mathamatically speaking I doubt if that would be a common occurance...... But apparently not impossible.

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Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Bass Rat
[B] I like the points system. It allows guys that can't fish as often a shot.

Good point. In my club we have two tournaments at Mahopac which usually yield some good wieghts. With the wieght system we use (not by my choice) if you miss one of these tournaments it can be tough to catch up. Points would put it on more of an even kiel.

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Posted by Paul at home on 2002 PM:

We run both systems together and have 2 titles. AOY based on weight and Sportsman of the Year based on points. The SOY includes club functions(meetings, kids clinics, work details) which guys would not show up for unless there is some kind of reward.

AOY based on weight can be misleading where one outstanding bag gives someone a huge advantage. I don't think any system is perfect and your results may vary.

Posted by Sea Jack on 2002 PM:

In my experience, the points system is definately the way to go. Hate to just reiterate waht has already been said, but I think it is the best way to determine the most consistant anglers of the year.

That being said, the federation points/weight system adds a neat fold. You always have the chance the have a great day and get right back into the race.

The weight system might work for smaller clubs as was mentioned above, but I've never been in a situation where I wanted a pure weight system.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

points....

CUS

My club switched from weight to points in 97. It was our feeling then as it is now, that points are a better baromoter for judging the clubs AOY or Top 6 standings.

A win on a lake that is noted for heavy stringers should count just as much as a win on a lake that is diificult to fish, no more and no less. I agree whole heartedly with Nole.....The point system rewards consistency.

In an earlier post I mentioned that while I had the heaviest total weight in my club, in tournament points I was in 7th. We use a scenario where-by the weight is factored in at the finish. I wound up 5th overall in the standings after the weight adjutment.

I believe "Total Points" to be the fairest way to determine the clubs best anglers for a given year.

Scully

Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

a little bumed out...lol

JP

I finished the year with 126.00 pounds. That was best in the club in 2002 and 2nd Place was 112 pound 8 ounces and that was posted by the clubs Angler of The Year.

The difference was that overall, in the 8 qualifying events, he had 3/1st Place finishes, 1/2nd Place finish, and 2/3rd Place finishes.
He had 6 "Top Five" finishes out of the 8 events. Thats consistency.

I on the other hand had 1/1st Place finish, 3/2nd Place finishes and 1/5th place finish. Thats only 5 "Top Five" finishes out of 8 events...oh yeah, it didnt help that I BLANKED on the Hudson paired with Keegan. Now that WAS a bummer. lol

The same scenario held for the 2001 season as well. I had the most weight, but not the most points. Prior to that, it had occurred only twice in the last 14 years. Usually the Angler of The Year is the guy with the best of both worlds.

Scul

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

Re: a little bumed out...lol

quote:

Originally posted by Scully
Joh yeah, it didnt help that I BLANKED on the Hudson

Scul

AHHH, more times than I care to remember I've entered tournaments with dreams of grandure only to find myself in the final hours praying for a 12 inch fish!!.........Such is the game.

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

I have to go the other way and say that I prefer weight over points. It is cut and dry and to the point. He or she with the most over all weight deserves to be the AOY/SOY. It just is not fair to have someone finish higher with less weight, just because they may have picked up extra points at a specific tournament. Weight indicates true score as in any sport, the score is earned by the players. Who is to judge the point system and its value? I do not think a first and second place finish should be separated by a point or two. I've seen some score systems that separate each place by a point.....1st place 10 points, 10th place 1 point etc. What if I win 7 of ten events and get 10 points for each win, I struggle on the next three events or finish with modest points......runner up finishes with 5 3rd place finishes and 5 second place and sneaks up to tie or win the crown with less weight but more overall, points. I do feel that the most consistent individual has the right to be the winner. 7 wins out of ten is about as consistent as it gets.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

is it so fair....

Craig follow this scenario.....You win a tournament on Lake Mahopac with 18 pounds. The next week Rob wins one on Ronkonkoma with 10 pounds. Why should your win be worth more in the overall standings than Robs?

All lakes are not created equal. There was little if any chance for Rob to catch 18 pounds on Ronkonkoma. His win was JUST as important as yours and should be assesed accordingly. IMHO lol

It took me awhile to look at the picture this way, but I believe it is the only fair way to do it.

Atlantics Point System
1st 25pts
2nd 23 pts
3rd 21 pts
4th 19 pts
5th 17 pts
6th 15 pts
7th 14 pts than 1 less for each position. Thats a 10 point spread between 1st and 6th. Seems to work well for us. Every club has their own point system.

Scul

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Scull, your system does seem fair. My main argument was with systems that really separate things by only a point. I've also seen some pot luck double points tournaments which I think are HorseS***. I guess that if you are consistently in the top two spots, there is little chance of being overthrown. I am going to go back and add a points system to our past season and check how things would have faired.
I just feel that the most total weight is the best indicator of success. I do see your point that all lakes are not created equal and it is possible to score a better bag on a certain lake. At the same time, everyone who is participating has the opportunity to do that.
The main flaw I see is.......angler A gets a 5 fish limit of 15 lbs
Angler B gets 2 fish at 3lbs. Angler C gets 1 fish at 1lb for the first 3 spots. Angler A and B and C are separated in points by only 6 points. That is a flaw. Angler A does not have any real advantage in the long run. His convincing win really will not help him out unless he keeps it up on the same level virtually all season. I recalculated my clubs finishing spots. There was little movement in our team events. The first two teams in weight finished that way respectively. The 3rd and fouth team were separated byabout a pound and wound up tying in points. The singles got really shuffled up. All hell broke loose-

Team standings for 4 events:
Rob/Craig-96points
Barry/MikeD-84
Robbie/Bob-82
Bernie/Scott-82
Keri/Glen-68
Andy/Ira-40
Nick/Dean-40

Final standings for the team events are:
**Craig and Rob 36.45lbs
**Barry and Mike D 23.76lbs
**above anglers qualify for Classic**
Bob and Rob 21.61lbs
Bernie and Scott 20.27lbs
Keri and Glen 15.42lbs
Andy and Ira 10.41lbs
Nick and Dean 6.72lbs
Vinnie 2.20lbs

For the team events, there were no changes in position.

Singles 4 events:
Craig 96points
Scott 84points
Rob F 63points
Mike D 57 points
Bernie 38points
Frank 34points
Barry 30points
Robbie/Andy 21points
Bob 17points

Craig-68.04lbs
Rob F-49.37lbs
Scott-37.73lbs
MikeD-29.85lbs
Robbie-27.57lbs
Bernie-27.56lbs
Barry-26.01lbs
Bob-24.65lbs
Keri-17.42lbs
Andy-15.95lbs
Ira-10.41lbs
Nick-6.72lbs
Dean-6.72lbs
Frank P- 3.65lbs
Vinnie-2.20lbs

There were a number of possible position changes in our singles events. Robbie, who finished with the 3rd largest weight for the season was catapulted to nearly the end of the line in points. Rob Fisher lost some position as well. Only Scott and Frank moveds up, while everyone else lost position. I had the only spot that remained constant.

To me this shows that guys who show up to events get rewarded with points despite not so stellar finishes. In my opinion, it does not reward the guys who were fairly consistent. Rob and Robbie clearly sufferred in the standings with the point system. I still feel that overall weight is the best gauge of success. If you miss an event, either way you suffer.

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Posted by wnybassman on 2002 AM:

quote:

His convincing win really will not help him out unless he keeps it up on the same level virtually all season.

That statement says he needs to be consistant the rest of the year. Point exactly!!

Fact of the matter is, even if 2nd and 3rd places are only a fraction of the weight of 1st place, they were STILL the 2nd and 3rd best anglers on the water that day and should be rewarded as such.

quote:

To me this shows that guys who show up to events get rewarded with points despite not so stellar finishes.

This is what keeps some guys coming back each week, knowing they still have an outside chance in points. If they know they need 48 pounds for 5 fish to make a come back.........well....that is pretty discouraging.

Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Another way to look at it is this: who do you consider the better angler, the person with a 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finish, or the one with 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 2nd?

Okay, now what if the person who didn't win a tournament all season, caught 1 lb more over those tournaments? Because on the last day that bagged a huge sack of fish. All the other tournaments were grind it out tournies or on bodies of water not noted for big fish.

I personally feel the first angler had the better season by far, regardless of the weights, the reason being is he was more consistent.

Remember tournament wins can come on tough days (after a severe cold front, another tournament hit it the day before, etc...) and an angler could win with 9 lbs. (or possibly less).

CONSISTENCY... those people that consistently finish high at all tournaments, have my utmost respect.

cus

Posted by Scott C on 2002 PM:

not for nothing but I was fairly consistent. Consistantly 3rd with a win and no blanks in the singles events. And.....I made every TX
2nd overall in the points would seem fair.

When you look at it though our way seems less fair in the singles events than anything else. These calculations are made from the difference in team weight(where we started for the singles event) and the final singles totals.

I started at 20.27 lbs carried over from the doubles. Rob F started with 36.45 and Robbie at 21.61

I finished the singles with 37.73 for a 17.46# gain Rob F with 49.37 for a 12.92# gain and Robbie 27.57 for a 5.96# gain

Mike D started the singles with 23.76 and finished with 29.85 for a 6.09# gain.

Bernie started with 20.27 and finished with 27.56 gaining 7.29#'s

I didnt count Craig because we know he was clearly the leader.

technically if you went by individual actual weight caught it should be
Craig
Scott
Rob F
Bernie
MikeD
Robbie

etc.........

unless I am not understanding something this is the "fairest of them all"

just my .02

you know its friends first for me though....and always will be !

SC

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Posted by yar on 2002 PM:

i say the point system is the best way to go. it shows who was the most consistent fisherman. it's not about winning all the TX but being consistent. this year with my club(LIB) i never placed higher then second and i ended the season in 10th out of 54 anglers and made the classic.

scully said it best about one lake fishes bigger then the other lakes. most of the big TX trails use a point system. the redman trail once used both points and weight till 3yrs ago. they don't any more! also the bassmaster trail use a points system.

craig have a ? for you. scott posted that you guys carried over the weight all of you had from the team TX. you clearly had the lead from the start. why don't you figure out the totals of the singles TX if you all started from 0 weight and went by points! what would the out come be. would it change the standings at all please let us know. i think you will see some changes.

remember points are based on weight from each TX, but not on the overall weight from the TX season. it's all about how you fish each TX!

Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 AM:

Another thing to remember is Club fishing does not have the same objective as Tournament Trail fishing ( BASS, REDMAN, FLW).

In club fishing it is important to keep the general membership interested for the entire season. If guys are out of it they are "generally" going to loose interest.

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Ray, for sake of this thread, I did figure it out w/o adding total team weight to the singles weight. Yes, there were many moves over all. Just about everyone was effected.

Singles 4 events: Team weight not carried over.
Craig 96points
Scott 84points
Rob F 63points
Mike D 57 points
Bernie 38points
Frank 34points
Barry 30points
Robbie/Andy 21points
Bob 17points

Total weight for 4 singles events:
Craig 31.59lbs
Scott 17.46lbs
Rob F 12.92lbs
Bernie 7.29lbs
Mike D 6.09lbs
Robbie 5.96lbs
Rob and Robbie each missed at least on singles tournament.

total for season
Craig-68.04lbs
Rob F-49.37lbs
Scott-37.73lbs
MikeD-29.85lbs
Robbie-27.57lbs
Bernie-27.56lbs
Barry-26.01lbs
Bob-24.65lbs
Keri-17.42lbs
Andy-15.95lbs
Ira-10.41lbs
Nick-6.72lbs
Dean-6.72lbs
Frank P- 3.65lbs
Vinnie-2.20lbs

I may try to work with both the weight and points systems next season but I do not think I can put together something that separates each place by only a couple of points. Next season we can base AOL on total weight and come up with something based on the Total points thing. Would be fair both ways. We will only be doing the Team events next season as most, if not all guys prefer it.

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Posted by CUS on 2002 AM:

Our club separates each place by 5 points...starting at 250 pts.

First place: 250 pts, Second place: 245pts, Third place: 240 pts. etc....

In case of tie, add the points for the places tied and divide by two.

Ie. 3rd place has 2 people with same weight... add 3rd place points(240) and 4th place points (235) and divide by two. Which will give each person who tied for third 237.5 points.

Also to reward guys for fishing we award even the guys who didn't catch a fish with points. They will get 75% of the points the last angler who caught a fish received. SO for sake of argument : 11 anglers fish... 10 of the 11 caught fish.

The 10th place finisher (last guy who caught a fish) would receive 205 points. The 11th place finisher who zipped would get 75% of the 205 points (or .75 x 205) = 153.75 points.

This process coupled with two drop tournaments out of 6 we fish, seems to usually make for a very tight race. Plus by awarding things like most improved, rookie of the year, non-boater of the year, lunker of the year, and fishing for the 8 NYSBCF Club Team spots (6 + 2 alternates), we have very little drop off in participation. Our club pays each of the club team members $300 to defray costs of fishing the event. Plus the alternates each receive $150 to travel with the team.

Our first tournament had 38 participants and our last had 30. Which isn't fair because the day before we had our second to last tournament and that had 32. (2 guys had to go out of town otherwise we would of had 32 at that one as well).

cus

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

That is a decent system, by the way, good thread!

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Posted by CUS on 2002 AM:

Thanks...

I wish I could take credit for it, but my club's been around since the late 70's. Guess the club has gone through its fair share of different BS. (Fortunately not since I've been in it).

But no one has ever questioned the way we calculate who the best anglers are for a given season. At least not in the 7 years I've been in the club.

Good system... may not be right for all, but seems to work very well for us.

Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 AM:

Re: is it so fair....

quote:

Originally posted by Scully
All lakes are not created equal.

Pretty much sums it up IMHO. As a newbie to tournament circles, I have seen the extremes of competitive bass fishing on water where an 7 pound average limit can be expected, and other waters where a 20 pound bag can realistically be expected from the majority of the anglers.

A win is a win, no matter on what water and how an angler squeaked it out over the masses.

There is no questioning that the whole concept and original purpose for devising a points system for each event was intended to compensate for the discrepencies of different fisheries. It gives everyone a fresh chance to 'stay in the game' should the waters drawn for club points events be expected to produce smaller bags of weight, especially if such waters are scheduled later in the year.

Points system is the way to go.

Absolutely EXCELLENT thread!

Tight Lines...

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Do you think that the system may work better for large clubs or small clubs? I can see if you have 50 guys out on the water. But what about 10? In a larger club, lets say I fish 10 events and win the first two...based on the 250point system. In my next 8 I finish between 10 and 20 in the standings...for decent point amounts...I can technically coast into an AOY title provided nobody wins more events than me. I think it may be a little flawed. In my small club, same thing...if I win two or three events in a row, I'm virtually assurred to come out on top if nobody else can duplicate a winning string. I don't really see how this is totally better than over all weight. Weight is cut and dry...you earn it outright. Certain guys may have a spectacular day on a certain body of water but that is what this is all about...each angler makes decisions and they effect how the outcome is. Anybody would be fuming if they had the most total weight and was dropped from the top spot because of points. Cut and dry, the top guy caught the most weight, he/she should be recognized for it. Perhaps there is how the AOY should be determined while at the same time the top points getters qualify for a classic. Sorry I'm still on this but it is a consideration for my clubs tournaments in the future, I'm trying to weigh pros and cons.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

heres a little more....

Craig

As I mtioned in a previous post, it seems that every club has their own points system. The 25 point system works for my club and I have 50 members. Usually there are no more than 35 members at any one event. I honestly believe that the point system is the best way to go when deciding the AOY, Roookie of The Year, 6 Man Team, etc....

Here is an interesting scenario... In 2000 I won 4 of the clubs first five tournaments. Unfortunately, I had only a 4th and 3 / 5th place finishes the rest of the way. Kevin Cunningham won the Angler of The Year, although he won only 1 tournament. However, he did have 5/2nd place finishes and 2/3rd place finishes.

I had the heaviest total weight with 134.03 pounds, while Kevin was second with 130.11 pounds. His 8 top 3 finishes was much more impressive than my total weight, or winning 4 tournaments.

Craig, we reward weight as well as points. Give me a call and we can discuss the possibilities.

Scul

Posted by CUS on 2002 AM:

Earthworm,

I believe points will work regardless of the size of your club in determining who the better anglers are.

Remember weight is how you earn points for a particular tournament. Again keeping in mind that each tournament should count the same. As other have said, a win on lake x, should count the same as a win on lake y.

Who cares that lake x was won with 20lbs. and lake y was won with 15 lbs. They are both wins.

As for your strategy of win the first two events and coast, Scully's post proves that doesn't work. Why... because if someone is consistently good, they will over take you. Seen it over and over in my club as well.

Points of some sort are definitely the best way to figure angler of the year. That is the person who figured out how to catch fish on all water and not the person who found a pile of 4 lb largemouth in one tournament (coupled with mediocre tournaments).

Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

In a points environment, consistancy always prevails. How can it not?

For the record, STBM has only 4 points events per year and they all count (no drops). We usually have 80% of membership participation on average. And we operate on a 100 point system (100, 99, 98, 97 etc) Anglers that do not catch fish get 15 points less than the last place angler that did (we call these "show points")

Going into our last event this year, I believe the top 12 positions were seperated by less than 10 points. It was still anyone's game.

Also, it has been my experience in the past, that the guys that like the "weight system", are the guys who usually have the higher overall weights anyway. Nothing against you Craig, just my observation.

Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

yes and no.....

Noel I agree with your statement to a point. In the hsitory of my club (14 years) The AOY led the club in total points as well as total weight 10 times. When we switched in 97 to a "points" format, it was a unanimous decision based on what was fair.

Just this year, Suffolk County Bassmasters converted to a "points" format as well. After 9 years of awarding the AOY for total weight, the angler (Neil DeStefano) who has won ALL 9 years pushed for the change. He would have lost in 2002 if his club had been utilizing a point system.

He and I both are weight guys, but it really doesnt matter to us. We feel we should win every tournament anyway...lol

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 PM:

Excellent responses guys. Scull, I'll definately have to talk to you about this. Noel, I'm really not worrying about myself at all. I just want to keep things fair and interesting for everyone. I feel that in the grand scheme of things, weight can be made up, points can't. Lets say an angler has a disaster happen and can't make a tournament. Missing that one event can force him to miss out on a great finish. How do you make 50 or 100 or 250 points up if each guys is earning big numbers for low finishes?

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Posted by yar on 2002 PM:

craig i left out one thing out in my post. in my club(LIB) the top 9 in points and the last year classic winner go to the classic. but we have 2 spots for the biggest weight not already in by points. so you see we do reward the anglers that do catch heavy weight.

in past years since i've been in the club we had anglers make the classic when they came in 15th in points but had the weight!
we also give out awards for the top 3 in weight at the end of the year at our dinner!

so as bassrat stated, to kept the membership interested that's one way as we did!!

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

Craig, Iv'e waded through this long thread and although I must admit my non tournament status colors my opinion, from reading every single reply and argument, I would have to say that the points system does seem to be the fairest overall and you might want to just try it in EEBA next season, and see how it works out for the guys....... JOHN G

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 PM:

Thanks Ray C. I am working on implementing some type of points system. I'm going to have to run it by guys though. Ray C or Scull, do you automatically allow the previous years Classic champ to go to the following years Classic like in the big leagues? I wrote this into the rules of our club early on but may bring it up to a vote to remove it.

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Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

STBM does invite the previous years classic winner to the current years classic. Seems like a nice touch

Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

a few different spins.....

Craig....there are any number of ways you can choose to do it. For instance, at one time we took the clubs "Top Ten" anglers and in addition, gave the Classic champ from the year prior an automatic bye. Thats 11 anglers....so we initiated a tournament the week before the Classic that was open to those anglers who had not qualified for the Classic. We called that tournament, "The Best of The Rest". The winner from "The Best of The Rest" was than paired with the X Classic Champ for the current years Classic. As a matter of fact, Hooked Solid (Paul Ritchie) was the first member to qualify for the Classic through that format.

In 97 when the clubs mantra changed to a "Team Format", the Clubs by-laws were modified as well. From that time on anyone who wished to could go to the Classic, all expenses paid.

However, we end the year with a tournament we call the T.O.C. (Tournament of Champions) This event is open to only the "Top Ten" anglers from the clubs year end standings.

Scul

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

so what you are saying is Paul can't stack up and is second best!!! LOL Just kidding, I love 'em!

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Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

you said that, I didnt....

Craig.....its not nice to disparage my "consiglieore"....lol

Scul

Posted by JPBass on 2002 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by earthworm77
Lets say an angler has a disaster happen and can't make a tournament. Missing that one event can force him to miss out on a great finish.

Craig,

You might consider culling a tournament or two. That'll give the guys who can't make every tourney a fair shake, whether it be for points or weight.

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

JP, While I respect you coming up with that statement, why does any organization have to cater their standings around guys making an event or not? It reminds me of the olympics when they throw out the best and worst score. If you are limited to only 7 or 8 events, each one is precious and needs to be counted in the final tally. If anyone is a serious angler, they will try to make each event barring a complete emergency. If I know my worst finish or no show will be erased, then why not miss the event on Lake Y where I usually stink up the place anyway? I could prefish that day on another water.

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Posted by JPBass on 2002 AM:

There is of course no requiremnet to cater to the schedule of an individual but with a club of 15 or more members you'll always find a few who can't make every outing for one reason or another. A cull keeps them interested and in the running as opposed to bowing out for the season.

As far as skipping an event where I don't believe I'll fair well? I fish um anyway and have suprised myself on more than one occasion.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

learning through the years

Craig

At one time I took the same position as you have. If you couldnt make a tournament, such was life, that was your problem. There was absolutley no way IMHO that an angler should be able to discard a tournament (drop). It would punish the anglers who were dedicated enough to make ALL the tournaments. Or so I thought.

It took me a few years for me to see the error of my ways. Club Fishing should be fun for everyone. Its not supposed to be a "way of life". People have other, important responsibilitys and obligations to fulfill. Its just not practical to expect everyone to make a 6 or 8 tournament schedule.

There are graduations, weddings, 50th anniversarys, Communions, Bar-Mitzfas, and on and on. To me, IMHO its important to the success of every club, that its members have fun. Without that PRIME ingredient the club experience can be tedious for some and just not worth the effort for others.

We are blessed here in our area to be able to take advantage of the early season provided by Connecticuts regulations. In the course of a 7 month span, it is possible to hold 11 tournaments while allowing a drop of 3 to end with an 8 tournament format.
That is a little more than one tournament a month. It aslo keeps everyone in the "thick of the hunt" to the very end.

Stay your course...you will learn by addition and subtraction. Make sure you keep the best interests of your club in mind at all times and things will work out fine.

Scul

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 PM:

Scull, I always do things for the benefit of the club in mind. I am struggling to add a points system this coming season. In my opinion, it only helped one guy out and it would have dropped everyone else down a few notches. Now, the places we fish aren't as diverse as say Ct to Maho to Champ to Oscawanna. Obviously a big bag at Champ may dwarf a full bag at Oscawanna. Here on LI, I honestly feel that a tournament winner has the potential to get at least 10lbs at any lake we fish. Our average was just under 10 for each event when calculated together. There are times when 16 or 17 might win but those are few and far between. For that reason, I take stock in the fact that it would be much easier to make up weight than pounds and would give everyone and equally fair shot if they miss an event. You can't make up the lost points if you miss an event. Knowing that, if I missed a tournament and couldn't catch up, why would I bother to give it a serious shot? I know I can't win. I'm giving this honest consideration. I think I may be able to work something out with points but it will be secondary in nature to weight.

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Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

OK, You've got me a little confused?? If you employed a point system how could it drop all but one person "down a few notches"?? Wouldn't that then mean they're all in the same position?

Anyways Ray's last post was in reference to droppin some tournaments, not the points vs pounds issue, which would resolve your question of......

(Quote) "You can't make up the lost points if you miss an event. Knowing that, if I missed a tournament and couldn't catch up, why would I bother to give it a serious shot?"

Whatever you decide to do I'm sure it will work out fine.....Just food for thought.

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 PM:

In our weight totals for this past season, we had one guy from about 4th place wind up in second because the second and third place guys for total weight each missed the final two events. Now this guy who moved into second by points obviously shifted everyone else down a notch so everyone was effected the exception being me. The second and third place guys by weight lost out because they blanked for points. They outweighed the guy who moved up because of points. I'm still not sold on this system. I am a "you get what you earn" type guy.

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Posted by Scott C on 2002 AM:

I have been away from this thread for a few days.....this is a great thread. Any other EEBA guys have any comments on this matter ? I would certainly like to hear them. Craig...Kudos to you for working through all this. My head is spinning ! Certainly something to discuss at our next meeting, in great detail...
Scully, Cus, Ray, Nick, Noel, JP and the rest....thanks for all your spins. I for one know that this will help keep EEBA as one of the quality clubs to be a part of into the future.....
Thanks !

SC

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Scott, I would like to try to incorparate the system into ours...maybe as a secondary system to weight. Maybe it won't hold as much bearing as weight, but I have to work on it a bit to make it fair.

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Posted by yar on 2002 PM:

craig, yes the classic winner the year before is invited to the following years classic!!

this is my last post about weight vs points.
let's say you have 2 TX the 1st on is at hither hills were weight is usally about 14lbs+ the the last one is at peconic river zone 1. your TX totals were about 6lbs for the win if i remember right. if it was a point system 6lbs is still 1st place as was the 14lbs at HH. why should the angler lose that much ground for coming in 1st place at zone 1 if the lake you had the TX on fishes that much smaller then HH. and is known to fish that way.

ok i'm done with this issue!! see ya at the dinner on sunday!!!

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Ray, I'm hearing you on this but I'm also trying to be objective on all angles about this. I'm trying ot take everything into consideration. A normal first place finish on Forge should be over 11lbs. Just about any lake we fish can produce that at sometime during the season. At the same token, I have a problem with an event that happened at Swan Where forst place was about 8lbs and second was only a tad over 1 pound. Those two can't be separated by only a point or two, it just isn't fair to the winner. We'll talk!

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Posted by Scott C on 2002 AM:

Good point Craig......but that 8lbs consisted of one fish that was over 5. Without that kicker the difference in weight is 1.5-2 lbs. So its really only a 1 fish difference. One big fish of course......but one none the less.

Tell me to shut up now if that makes no sense to anybody.

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Regardless of what the bag was made up of, there is still a real big difference from 1st to 2nd. We've had events like this all season where one fish helped outdistance the crowd. Scott, you had one on Forge, Barry on Swan etc.....

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Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 AM:

Re: learning through the years

quote:

Originally posted by Scully
Craig

At one time I took the same position as you have. If you couldnt make a tournament, such was life, that was your problem. There was absolutley no way IMHO that an angler should be able to discard a tournament (drop). It would punish the anglers who were dedicated enough to make ALL the tournaments. Or so I thought.

It took me a few years for me to see the error of my ways. Club Fishing should be fun for everyone. Its not supposed to be a "way of life". People have other, important responsibilitys and obligations to fulfill. Its just not practical to expect everyone to make a 6 or 8 tournament schedule.

There are graduations, weddings, 50th anniversarys, Communions, Bar-Mitzfas, and on and on. To me, IMHO its important to the success of every club, that its members have fun. Without that PRIME ingredient the club experience can be tedious for some and just not worth the effort for others.

We are blessed here in our area to be able to take advantage of the early season provided by Connecticuts regulations. In the course of a 7 month span, it is possible to hold 11 tournaments while allowing a drop of 3 to end with an 8 tournament format.
That is a little more than one tournament a month. It aslo keeps everyone in the "thick of the hunt" to the very end.

Stay your course...you will learn by addition and subtraction. Make sure you keep the best interests of your club in mind at all times and things will work out fine.

Scul

Scully,

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading the above. Balance is everything in life. Larger club tourney trails probably do require a larger need for making it fair for all.

You expound upon your thoughts well.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by Scott C on 2002 AM:

Agreed....I look at it like NASCAR You get points for best position regardless if its a 400 mile race or a 500 mile race.

It doesnt matter if you finished 1 mile ahead of second or if you drag raced to the finish and won by an inch. You get points for the position not the distance.

Please understand that I am not in any way disagreeing with any of this...just trying to put it all in perspective.

Thank goodness I am just the chief note taker and hamburger flipper !!

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Posted by CUS on 2002 AM:

Craig,

Something else to possible consider... B.A.S.S. has been around something like 35+ years, and they use points to determine Angler of the Year. FLW uses points to determine Angler of the Year.

Combined I would say well over 2000 anglers participate in those circuit's tournaments a season.

Not saying they are right, just saying that is a lot of experience and should be given heavy consideration.

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

decisions to make....decisions, decisions decisions!!!

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Posted by CUS on 2002 AM:

Craig,

This is possibly the last thing I have to say (unlikely, but possible).

Some club's fish two tournaments on the same body of water in a season.

For example: Two tournaments are held on Oneida Lake (in CNY), one opening day, another Oct. 6.

Opening day tournament on Oneida: Results: 1st: 12lbs.
2nd: 9lbs.
3rd: 8lbs,
etc...
(post spawn conditions)

Fall tournament on Oneida: Results: 1st: 18lbs
2nd: 17lbs
3rd: 15lbs.
...
7th: 12lbs, etc...
(fall feeding frenzy)

Please explain to me how it makes sense that an angler who comes in seventh is a better angler than the angler who came in first under tough conditions?

Every angler fishes under the same conditions during a tournament, so their order of finish for that tournament is an indicator of their performance for that day. However, all tournaments are not equal for a variety of factors already mentioned.

In my opinion, points are the truest indicator of performance ACROSS MULTIPLE TOURNAMENTS (due to inconsistent variables like weather, seasonal patterns, body of water, fish populations, etc...).

Hope it helps!!

cus

Posted by skeeter195 on 2002 PM:

Mike I agree.
If an angler catches 2 fish on a really tough day and wins the TX he should be awarded the top points prize for the day even if he only caught say 3 pounds. No way should an angler who catches 10 pounds in the next TX and comes in say 15th place be ahead in the year end race if the guy who won the first TX only catches say 7 pounds and comes in 25th. Point systems are a much fairer way to reward an angler of the year title.

Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by earthworm77
decisions to make....decisions, decisions decisions!!!

The points vs weight is probably a great topic to bring up to general membership for a vote.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

oooohhhh boy...

Bass Rat

love those general membership votes.................. Bring on the Rolaids... lololol.

Scul

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by earthworm77
In our weight totals for this past season, we had one guy from about 4th place wind up in second because the second and third place guys for total weight each missed the final two events. Now this guy who moved into second by points obviously shifted everyone else down a notch

OK I gottcha. But that would of only moved the 2nd and 3rd place guys down a notch, not everybody....Right? 5th would still be 5th and so on.

And if you decide not to drop any tournaments then guys who miss a couple of events certainly should drop a couple of spots.

Not that any of this is really relevant to your decision....just a little more food for thought......

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Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

quote:

I look at it like NASCAR You get points for best position regardless if its a 400 mile
race or a 500 mile race.

It doesnt matter if you finished 1 mile ahead of second or if you drag raced to the finish and
won by an inch. You get points for the position not the distance.

That is the best analogy I have heard yet!!

I am out of this thread to. It has been a good one though!

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Please explain to me how it makes sense that an angler who comes in seventh is a better angler than the angler who came in first under tough conditions?

Every angler fishes under the same conditions during a tournament, so their order of finish for that tournament is an indicator of their performance for that day. However, all tournaments are not equal for a variety of factors already mentioned.

Cuz, I didn't say that the angler who came in 7th was better than the first place finisher. I understand you fall feeding frenzy point but again, with all anglers fishing the smae water during a tournament, all hasve the ability to win and pull in a big bag. I also understand that all tournaments may not be created equal but again, each respective angler does have the same chance of putting it together for a win. For this reason, I am not sold on the points system. I see it as a way to keep a couple of guys from running away with the season. Like I said, I will try to work it out and tweak with it a bit. Thanks again fellas, this has been a very informative, friendly thread where everyone got his or her point across without flying off the handle......despite me being so stubborn about this!! Thanks!!

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Posted by CUS on 2002 AM:

Craig,

Didn't mean you said it... just meant that the weight system implies (says it).

The weight system by its nature implies that the angler who finishes 7th with 12 lbs at one tournament is equal to the angler who wins with 12 lbs at another tournament because it doesn't take into account that tournament waters or conditions are different.

Twelve pounds (1st place) on a tough day should be rewarded more than twelve pounds (7th place) on an easy day. Using a weight system there is absolutely no way to do that.

If each angler only fished one tournament (obviously not the same tournament)... You club's end of the year standings using weight would say Angler 1: 12 lbs., Angler 2: 12lbs.

In your eyes are they equal?? I personally think the angler that won the tournament had a better year.

(Guess that wasn't my last post)....

cus

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

(Guess that wasn't my last post)....

cus

LOL!

I understand where you are coming from but again, I base everything on a season's worth of consistency. I follow all of the ideas and have thought about everything on this thread. There is no doubt about the fact that each system has its pros and cons. The point you brought up about weight mirrors my feeling about points. There really is no difference from first to say third or fourth in the points system because the examples given were so close. My feeling is that weight is a true indicator of effort put in during a whole season. I wouldn't feel good about myself if I backed into a win because somebody couldn't make a tournament. I won this season because I brought in the most total weight, I think that is fair in iteslf as an indicator of AOY. If I tinker with the points system, I might find a way to make it work for our small club in order to qualify for the Classic or maybe even another Championship type of tournament at the end. I'll bring it up to the board of officers at the next meeting. Thanks again guys!

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Posted by CUS on 2002 AM:

I agree to disagree...