Posted by Dean on 2002 AM:

The BS Factor

For all who have posted in the bass club like/dislike thread, the issue of BS has come up in several of the posts. Several have stated that it's in any type of club setting and there are others who don't feel that it really exists in their club setting. So what exactly is the BS? What types of things are you referring to? Is it not sharing info., guys that think they are bigger than the club, arguments over money and how its spent, jealousy, rules? I'd be interested in hearing what guys mean. Also, maybe what's acceptable or not or whatever on this. Thanks.

Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

here s a list....

Dean

BS comes in many sizes and shapes. BS doesnt have to be a HUGE club problem that divides, or fractionalizes a clubs membership. As my clubs President for 12 of the 14 years we have been in existence I have heard a LOT of BS....here are a few examples

1. Member A complains that member B was running his boat with out his PFD on. He tells the TX director, who talks to the President, who together with the TX committee has to arrive at a decision. Whatever the decision, some one is going to be pissed off. Why couldnt that guy or guys just mention to him...hey put your PFD on. Thats a form of BS...

2. Member A and member B complain that member C is taking too much time recovering his boat at the launch. So what....dont complain, show him what he is doing wrong. Thats deffinitley BS

3. A tournament date has to be changed due to a conflict with another club (Connecticut DEP permit). The Tournament Director has to change the schedule. Members call me complaining that the Tournamernt Director changed the dates because he doesnt do well on the lake. WOW is that ever BS

4. In the course of a conversation a memebr mentions to me that so & so shouldnt have won the tournament, they just got lucky....If they did, whats you point? Thats incredible BS

5. The membership votes according to our by laws and a majority decission is final. The members who opposed the yea-vote are pissed off that the rest of the club voted another way and they get an attitude. They continue to complain. Thats BS

Dean....the club members for the most part dont see or hear the BS...the board members do, beacuse they field the complaints. We dont ALWAYS let the membership know about these complaints because to do so would be counter-productive.

BS is ALWAYS there in one ugly form or another. In the History of Atlantic, there has been only one serious BS problem and that was addressed immediately. The club member responsible was suspended for one year and is now back serving a one year probationary period. He didnt cheat in a TX or anything to do with a TX, he just was a continuous pain in the but, always stirring the pot. We decided he needed to be taught a lesson. We dont believe he will be a further problem....lol

Scul

Posted by theole34 on 2002 AM:

scullys post is good. very straight forward. i don't want to take away from it so my can o worms pic will be removed.. good post ray.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

by any other name

Barry

How about a "Pit of Vipers"

OR....a "Den of Wolves"

OR...a "Bunch of Ass Holes" (My persaonal favorite)

interestingly enough, most clubs have a little of each, but heavy on the third choice. lol

Scul

Posted by BARRY on 2002 AM:

Well being that Robbie has removed the animation My post makes no sense to who ever sees it now. Say good bye multiple choice question. Please realize there was no offense intended to any one. It was really meant to keep things from heating up. If I offended any one, Sorry!

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Posted by NO LUCK on 2002 AM:

I havent belonged to any type of club in some time...my deal is simple if I'm not happy I bail...someone who wants to be in the club will take my spot...negative feeling's are not good for you...especially when your in a club to enjoy yourself...Matt

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Posted by theole34 on 2002 AM:

what has been happening lately is that a bunch of posts have been interpreted as zings, digs, slants. some problems exist in the coexistance of many in one tight spot. once all come together and get it out of the way, all will be clear. it may not be a happy thing, but it will be a clear thing. some of these threads elicit responses that are not 100% thought out, but a rambling of an angered mind, or two, or three...

scullys posts are usually well thought out, and most can relate. keep it informative and it makes sense. once the anger enters.. it makes no sense.

good posts scully.. on all fronts. here, and the other thread.

robbie

that about sums it up matt - you must be happy with it, or bail.

quote:

my deal is simple if I'm not happy I bail...someone who wants to be in the club will take my spot...negative feeling's are not good for you...especially when your in a club to enjoy yourself...Matt

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Hail Triton! Scully excellent explanation.

"the club members for the most part dont see or hear the BS...the board members do, beacuse they field the complaints. We dont ALWAYS let the membership know about these complaints because to do so would be counter-productive."

There is always some type of thing going on behind the scenes. Most guys never get to pick up on it. Hopefully guys will realize that there are so many considerations to take when an officer or board member makes a decison in any club. As a TD of EEBA, I had to make a few last minute changes when conflicts arose, mostly, I didn't get any negative feedback as guys understood all decisions were for the benefit of the club. Again Ray, great post. That's two in a row in rapid succession!

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 AM:

Scully, Great post. Did you get a PHD in BS? LOL

Seriously though, great explaination.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 AM:

a disease

Bass Rat

If BS was a disease.....I would have a lethal dose....lol

Scul

Posted by Scott C on 2002 AM:

One time at band camp.........

Oh never mind.

Scully .......another great post !!

If this stuff ever happened in our club I wouldnt WANT to know about it !

.....but I dont think Craig wore his PFD at the classic.

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Posted by BARRY on 2002 AM:

PFD??? Ithought it was BFD

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Posted by wnybassman on 2002 AM:

I actually invite a small amount of BS into the mix. I think it helps to keep the checks and balances, and also makes sure everything is operating as it should (meaning dealing with the BS). If everything runs too smoothly, something is wrong

I think Metallica said it best, when they said "Energy derives from both the plus and negative"

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Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

But to actually answer your question Dean, one of the largest forms of BS I have witnessed is lake selection for the tournaments. I have been at meetings where it took many hours of haggling and bickering to hash out a tournament schedule for the season. It is a "tug of war" for everyone involved, and almost always someone gets ticked off.

When STBM was formed, is was written that lake selection will be determined by random draw. Which means basically, we have a determined radius from the center of the club headquarters (which is the Portville area). Within this area, we have a predetermined list of lakes (or rivers) that we can possibly fish. Without looking, I believe there is a dozen or so bodies of water on this list. At our October meetings, we draw our 4 points tx's for the following year from this list. Plain and simple, no BS. Our lake selection now takes roughly a minute and a half.

The only alteration we made to this procedure, was two years ago. Now, we remove the current years points tx lakes from next years list of lakes. This way we cannot fish the same body of water in two consecutive years, at least in a points tx environment. We believe this constantly puts on "fresh" waters, and helps to make us all better in the long run. It seems to work well for us so far.

Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

It can be a problem

Noel

Thats the way it WAS with my club, Atlantic. Someone was always pissed off that we werent fishing one particular lake or another.

Then we instituted a by-law change. Now, the Executive board ONLY makes up the tournament schedule. The first year or two there were people who complained, since then NO problems. We do ask for input, in fact we put out a questionaire, asking for the memberships thoughts regarding the tournament selection process. Out of 50 members, only 9 returned the questionaire last year.

We do try to take their suggestions if at all possible. I have found however, that 5 heads planning out a tournament schedule is FAR superior to 50.

We completley eliminated the petty bickering and loud squabels over tournament venues. Now, if you dont like the tournament schedule, vote for a new board next year. It wont happen, because no one wants to do the work involved.

The less a club membership has to do with running a club, the better the club runs IMHO. I hear complaints about one club or another being called a "Dictatorship". Most of the time the best run clubs are sort of a Dictatorship. The reason being, the same guys do ALL the work ALL the time. There are very few people who want to do the work involved in running a bass club. Most members just want to fish and complain.

One thing I have noticed as well. The clubs that change officers on a yearly basis are ALWAYS the clubs that lack leadership and direction. The new board members are too involved in learning their duties to be strong enough to carry them out. IMHO.

Scully

Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 PM:

we have a 6 man Tournament committe and use the President"s vote as the tie breaker for all tx desiscions. The Pres is not a member of the Tx committee.

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Posted by BARRY on 2002 PM:

Ray, What about electing 1 new officer each year and move the existing officers up 1 position with the out going president takling a tie breaking vote position. In other words elect a new Secreatary, the existing secretary would be appointed to Treasurer, the Treasurer would be come VP and the VP would become President. In that way you would keep some sort of continuity while bringing in new ideas? It's just a thought. I would like your take on it. Thanks, Barry

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 PM:

Barry, Most of the general membership does not want this responsibility. It's a pain handling finances & setting up tournaments.

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Posted by BARRY on 2002 PM:

So much for that idea!!

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Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

a good point

Barry

I dont believe in fixing something if its not broke. In Atlantic we have two positions that are called "Members At Large". These are club members appointed by the club President and approved by the Executive Board. While not members of the Executive Board, they are members of the clubs 7 man "Board of Directors"

They are what we like to call the "watchdogs of the club". It is their job to attend all Executive Board meetings and engage in and offer their opinions on what ever is being discussed at that particular board meeting. It is their job to look out for the interests of the general membership. To make sure a "despotic" Executive Board doesnt ram-rod decisions down the throat of the membership. If they feel the Executive Board is not fullfilling its mandate, they have the right to bring this to the attention of the general membership.

They have no vote in Executive Board matters. However, their mission is two fold. They do get to see HOW an Executive Board conducts business and they are now more informed as to why certain decisions are made. They become "do'ers" and not watchers. Its a great way to train the club officers of the future. Of the 5 members now on the Executive Board of Atlantic Bassmasters, 3 of them began as "Members At Large".

Bass Rat mentioned in a previous post that his clubs President is not a member of the tournament committee. Each club has its own rules, regulations and by-laws. In Atlantics By-Laws, the club President is on EVERY committee. Tournament, Saftey, Ways & Means, Conservation and Membership.

He allows those Commitees to run themselves and report to the clubs Executive Officer. The clubs Executive Officer than reports to the President what is being done/discussed by each committee.
The President either approves or disaproves any intended action by that committee.

We took quite a bit of our by-laws from those in the B.A.S.S. handbook on how to structure a clubs Executive Board. In that handbook it states a clubs President should be the foundation of the club. He presides over the membership, appointing all committees who are responsible directly to him and the Executive Board. The only occasion in which the President may vote in any Board action is as the "Tie Breaker" ONLY.

We do have a SPECIAL RULE in Atlantic that is "The Best Interest of The Club" rule. As the President, if I feel that the Executive Board is enacting a ruling that is not in the best interest of the club, I have the right to void that decision and bring that ruling in front of the general membership for a majority vote. In all my years as President I have had to do this just once.

A club is not an easy thing to run. A lot of thought has to go into it and the most important thing to remmember in governing is to keep the best intrests of the club in mind and at heart ALWAYS.

Scul

Posted by Dean on 2002 PM:

I haven't been on since earlier when I submitted this post, but there seemed to be alot of talk about bs being inherent in all clubs. To not know exactly what people were referring to as bs was kind of too grey for me. It seems like I may have missed a response or two, but I truly appreciate the responses I got. Ray I read your posts and not only learned something from you, but laughed my ass off at you analogies. I guess I've only seen one major incident in Outcast and that was dealt with swiftly and I think correctly at this point. I didn't necessarily see it as bs, but others definitely would have. There is definitely some very mild stuff which I wouldn't even consider bs, but others do. Enough said. Thanks for the contributions guys.

A couple of excellent points by Ray:

Now, the Executive board ONLY makes up the tournament schedule. The first year or two there were people who complained, since then NO problems. We do ask for input, in fact we put out a questionaire, asking for the memberships thoughts regarding the tournament selection process. Out of 50 members, only 9 returned the questionaire last year.

One thing I have noticed as well. The clubs that change officers on a yearly basis are ALWAYS the clubs that lack leadership and direction. The new board members are too involved in learning their duties to be strong enough to carry them out. IMHO.

Don't mess with what's been successful.

Posted by Scott C on 2002 PM:

The last points that Scully brings up about the Dictatorship and the changing of the guard are very interesting.

I would have thought that spreading out the responsibilities to the people that are most active or most opinionated would give those people a sense of ownership. Thus taking the burdons off just one or a few individuals..........

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Posted by Scott C on 2002 PM:

Ok...my last post was posted after Scullys and I can now see that there are definitely more layers of government in a club of that size. My thoughts are geared to a club environment 1/3 the size.

I am learning as I go here.......

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Posted by BARRY on 2002 PM:

Ray, I should have prefaced that my idea was based on what Scott was talking about a club a lot smaller than yours I think that we number about 18. My feeling in a club of this size you really need partipation in all phases by all members. Yes in an organization of your size it would be very diifficult to spread out all the responsibilities. As far as "if it ain't broke don't fix it" no one can ever dispute that logic.

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Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Tournament Water Selection used to be up to the Tournament Director and his 6 person committee.

Now what we do is a weighted average, giving each member an opportunity to have a say as to what bodies of water we fish.

A member picks 6 bodies of water (within 1 1/2 hour driving distance) and ranks them in order of preference.

ie. 1st: Oneida, 2nd: Redfield, 3rd: Cayuga, etc...

All sheets are collected... each first place vote is given 6 points, 2nd place vote is given 5, so on down to the 6th place vote which is given 1 point.

All voted for lakes are written down and the top 6 point getters are the bodies of water we fish. With a slight caveat... if all the waters are the same as last year, we will take the next two highest point getters (so that we are fishing some different water throughout the year). The goal is we fish at least two different bodies of water from the previous year.

The tournament director and his committee will then take the member's selected waters and assign dates to them (trying to pick the best times to be on certain bodies of water, or to work around the NYSBCF schedule).

That's it plain and simple... you are a member, you have a say!! You'd be quite surprised to see the member turn out at the December meeting, cause guys want to try and get on their favorite water!!

cus

Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

a good foundation

Barry

There are always going to be those who care (the do'ers) and those that just want to have a good time (the Yippppeees!)

Regardless of the size of the club, you have to have a solid core of "do'ers" for the club to succeed. You dont have to spread the responsibilitys out among the entire club.

For 18 members I would reccommend
1. a Full 5 Member Board (President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer and Executive Officer. Some clubs replace the Executive Officer with the Tournament Director.

2. For a club your size the Tournament Committe should be no larger than 3 members, preferably NOT members of the Executive Board. That would give you 8 members out of 18 who are involved in one form or another in running the club. Thats a very good ratio.

3. You can as we do ask for help from the membership to perform a club task, such as helping with boat recovery at a busy launch.
There are usually a few who are willing to help out and pitch in. One word here.....dont forget who offers to help. Make a mental note and find a way to reward them in some way. Dont let their efforts be taken for granted. You can get a lot accomplished with a little bit of honey.

Scully

Posted by BARRY on 2002 PM:

You are so right recognition goes a lot further than anything else.
Thanks for the input.
Barry

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Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

good way, but I would disagree

Cus

The way you pick your tournaments works well for you. As long as it works there is no need to change. It wouldnt work for my club. The reason I dont believe the membership should make the choices are two fold.

If you dont make the meeting when your tournaments are chosen, your S.O.L. My clubs by-laws state that if less than half the club membership are present at the meeting (a quorum) we can not conduct new business. That would mean postponing the tournament selection to January and that just wont work here in Southeastern New York where venues and dates are at a premium.

Second, a block of anglers, let say the better anglers form together and due to their numbers, vote to see a tournament schedule chosen that may not be in the best interest of the club, but deffinitley in theirs.

As an example, there is a small group of anglers in my club who enjoy fishing tidal Rivers, The Potomac, Hudson and the Connecticut. If I left it up to a membership vote....the closest those guys would come to those rivers is passing over them to get to a lake. lol

By including a minimum of two tidal rivers in our tournament schedule we are looking out for the best interests of the club. A little something for every one.

Scul

Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

You are definitely right on about the tidal water... as far as it goes for me they can go ahead and start paving the Hudson.
That is the only place known to me where a person can catch 2 legal sized bass and have them weigh 1.11 lbs. (check my weight on the NYSBCF 3 years ago if you don't believe me).

Seriously I have to agree. However you do your scheduling, if it works for your club then that is the way to do it.

Our waters are not too drastically different so the guys really don't get bent about fishing one vs. the other. I know there have been guys "stumping" for votes to go here or there, but what's funny is even under their "coordinated efforts" they don't typically get enough votes.

I think because we are a large club coupled with the weighted average may have something to do with it.

Regardless, our focus isn't on the competition... we want to learn. So who cares where we are fishing, as long as we are fishing!

Personally, if the Hudson was closer I'd love to go and get paired with someone who knows it... hell, based on my past experience I probably couldn't do any worse if I got paired with someone who DIDN'T know it!!

Can you tell I'm looking forward to the NYSBCF tournament on the Hudson in 2003??

cus

Posted by Dominic on 2002 PM:

Scul,

and don't forget, there are some that will never be happy or approve of anything. LIKE MY PARTNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

Ray,

I totally agree with your last post.

There's NO WAY everybody's gonna be happy.

Elect a tournament committe and have them pick the lakes and dates. If you don't like what they pick, don't fish!!

Having the entire club present creates nothing but havoc.

As much as a club needs good leadership it also needs cooperation from the masses.

In other words if you don't wanna do the work then "SHUT UP AND FISH".

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Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

JP,

I'm confused on what havoc there would be by giving everyone the opportunity to pick 6 bodies of water and adding up the points?

It is math, there is no discussion about it or after it. Except in the case of the same bodies of water being chosen, then all we do is go to the 7th (or 8th place vote getters).

No screaming, shouting, "cats and dogs living together...MASS HYSTERIA".

Collect the sheets and add them up... here's the results... tournament committe go put dates to them.

cus

Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

what club

Cus

By some of the lakes you mentioned I had to ask....are you a member of Port City?

Scul

Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

He's the whole problem...

Dom

If it werent for your partner, we wouldnt need by-laws, just a dart board. lol

Scul

Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Salt City Bassmasters...

Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

ooohhhh

Cus

I have a good friend who belongs to Port City. His club fishes some of the same venues.

Scul

Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

another load

Hey Cus

Dom who posted a while back weighed in 3 smallmouth on the Hudson two years ago that weighed 2 lbs 12 ounces... Dom, that was some load. The craziest part is that was enough for a 4th place finish out of 12 boats (24 guys). lol

Scul

Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

Scully,

Yes, we ran into Port City a couple of times... I know a couple of guys in their club.

Seem like a good bunch of guys!

cus

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by CUS
JP,

I'm confused on what havoc there would be by giving everyone the opportunity to pick 6 bodies of water and adding up the points?

It is math, there is no discussion about it or after it. Except in the case of the same bodies of water being chosen, then all we do is go to the 7th (or 8th place vote getters).

No screaming, shouting, "cats and dogs living together...MASS HYSTERIA".

Collect the sheets and add them up... here's the results... tournament committe go put dates to them.

cus

You do make it sound simple. Just never worked out that way in my club.

The havoc that ensued is usually due to what lakes are available and when. Many lakes by us you have to register for a tournament and the date you've chosen is not always available.

Trying to accomidate the schedule of an individual (bad idea)

Maybe it was just poor organization on our part. But it always ended up in a mess.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

a tough finish

Cus

My friends name is Nolan Edwards. He was leading in the clubs Angler of The Year race going into their last tournament on Redfield. His mother became ill down in Kentucky and he had to go take care of her needs. He wound up finishing second. He had two good Fed tournaments though....8th on Oneida I believe and 4th on Cayuga. He bombed on Chataqua and couldnt make Champlain.

Scully

Posted by CUS on 2002 PM:

JP...

what isn't simple is the dates... and the whole club has no say in picking the dates.

That is up to the tournament director and his committee...

No way, I would want everybodies say in when to hold a tournament... my god that would be insane!

Plus our waters are pretty open... just show up at a ramp and you are pretty much good to go.

cus

Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

different here

Cus

Things are different in this neck of the woods. Clubs from New Jersey, Connecticut, Massacusetts and New York all trying to find and secure tournament dates on a very small scale from which to choose. I know of one club in Connecticut that had three of their first four tournaments "bumped", because of ramp conflicts. It can really be a nightmare.

Scully

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by CUS
JP...

No way, I would want everybodies say in when to hold a tournament... my god that would be insane!

cus

Oh It was!! LOL

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Ray, once again, I appreciate your input as I know clubs can use what you've said here to better themselves. Barry, to get back to you rotation idea....why would you choose to pull someone from the job they did the previous season and put them in a new unfamiliar position? Scott, I totally agree that we need guys to take on more roles of respondsibility but in a small club, you can't have every guy be an officer. The outline that Scully provided was basically what we adhered to this year.....pres, VP, Sec, Tres, T/D and two additional T/C members. Our structure was right on. It is just a few things within the structure that need to be addressed.

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Posted by Scott C on 2002 AM:

I am in full agreement Craig......This post was a good learning experience for me.

SC

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Posted by BARRY on 2002 AM:

Craig, Basically to avoid "burn out" or stagnation also to get new ideas new interests and more participation, also it would "quailfy" every member to be able to jump into any position to lend a hand if the need arises. (that comes from my old submarine days) Wen in order to be "qualified" you needed to know the entire boat and every job that was done on it From cook to engineman to navigator to torpedoman etc. The system did work I imagine it still does.
Barry

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

I got you sub-guy

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Posted by theole34 on 2002 AM:

for me - it is always better to share the success. i think each style has its benefits, but i enjoy the partner - combined weight thing better. teams!!!! and the bs thing is controlable, and tolerable if kept in check.

barry..

i have the pic you requested. the one of you and the boys from your ship.

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Posted by joe pido on 2002 AM:

ray

YIPEEEEEEEEEE!....

joe

Posted by BARRY on 2002 AM:

Yup that's us The Few, The Proud, The Psychotic. Thats me front row with the big hat

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Posted by Kenny C on 2002 AM:

More BS than Poetry

Guy's, I have read through all 4 pages of this thread and have found out that what works for 1 club does not work for all. I am the President of Outcast Bass Anglers and I see some of the ways we operate in a few different posts. Some of the other things I see would not work for us IMHO. Basically what I think it boils down to is what works for each club is the way they need to operate. I'm sure some starting points are the same in all situations but then they are fine tuned over whatever time period to make the club run, or the club splits up, breaks up, or just goes away.
Outcast has been in existence for more than 15 years, I have been a member since 1993 and I have been President since 1999, I was on the Tournament Committee for 2 years prior to being elected Vice President and 2 years later I was elected President.
My best friends I have met through being a part of this club !!! I am very happy and very proud to be part of Outcast Bass Anglers !!!

We have more of this Than this !!!

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Posted by BARRY on 2002 PM:

Very nice post the last few lines say it all.
Barry

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