Posted by Steve_IA on 2002 PM:

Where in the @#$% is my jig???

Travis mentioned in another post about knowing where in the water column his jig was... not a bad idea to bat around in a fresh post. How do people break down the water column and what techniques do they use to fish the different depths. It is easier to control depth using mono, but is it impossible to do with a braid? Do people use different lures to fish different depths or do they change size or weight or retrieve speed... or any combination of! Do we treat still and moving water alike? Charlie Brewer had his ideas but do we all agree with him or have we come up with new wrinkles to improve his system? Fishermen seldom agree with each other on any subject... I can't imagine we won't have several differing ideas about this. John, you're a Brewer's follower... what techniques have you developed, and I know Dick, EW and Travis have a wealth of information if they have the time to invest in writing it all down.

Posted by postcard on 2002 PM:

The number or multi-depth lures is phenomenal!
A floating worm can be worked at any depth.
A deep dive crankbait can be worked in 4'.
A shallow, hard, jerkbait can be rigged to work at 10'.
A j&p can be swum at mid-depth or worked on bottom; ditto for spinnerbaits.

Most everyone I know are shallow water anglers (10' or less) and feel confident plugging shoreline flats or shallow drops.
Line, in my experience, can be a problem if its diameter is too large for the action or depth needed from a certain lure.

Travis was right about smaller line size being able to catch large fish in open water. For years, all I used was 8-10 lb. mono, but changed to braid when I started working the slop and needed to horse fish out.

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

Steve , a great point you brought up.....now, with Brewers it is very easy to fish it at various depths, because you can count it down and by now I know the retrieve speed that will keep it running at the same depth......that is all fine and well HOWEVER, it is still a moving lure, and there are times that they might not want something moving horizontally EVEN IF IT IS AT THE DEPTH THAT THEY ARE!!!! that of course is where a jig comes in and that is the basis of your question, how do you know what depth in the water column you are shaking your jig in? Counting down requires familiarity with the weight of your bait, some people might do it by feel, but I am still an oldfashioned count it out to yourself or aloud kind of guy........it can be done, that is for sure, and I have done it with Snoozers tubes many times, a classic example is fishing deep brigde abutments on our NYC reservoir system.....you know, if you switch your sonar to full manual and turn up the sensitivity, it is possbile to actually see your jig if you are fishing it directly under the boat vertically alongside your transducer

I will usually count down until it hits the bottom and then estimate rate of fall from that and the depth on the sonar and then adjust accordingly to lower it to the depth I want.....that always works fine with perpendicular vertical presentations, I must admit that when you cast outwards and try to do the same thing, it is much more difficult...... JOHN G

__________________
"and a new Commandment I shall give you.....that you shall love one another"
---------------------------------
> email - DrBass2@aol.com
> Forum Moderator aka: Head Honcho
---------------------------------
Quote: "coming soon"
---------------------------------

Posted by Gregg on 2002 PM:

I also count down a brewers, and I fish it enough to know just how slow to reel to keep it there. With swimming soft plastic I try to control it's depth by varying the speed it is reeled. When fishing something like a blade bait I do it the other way would let it sink to the bottom then 1/2 reel turn up gets me 1' off the bottom a full turn 2' or whatever you want then start jigging.

__________________
Gregg

Posted by quantumman29 on 2002 PM:

im classified in that 1inch-10 foot zone....

outside of carolina rigging and my recent endevors into drop shotting,if the fish are deeper then 10 feet,,im screwed! i can honestly say i dont think ive ever caught a bass of any species willingly and knowing it was deeper then 10 feet,it may have come up some distance for my lure,but i never knew it.as for probing the depths,spinnerbaits,deep cranks,and unweighted zoom 5 inch flukes and 5 inch unweighted senko's,and the occasional 7 inch power worm fished unweighted except for 3 split shots 2 feet above the lure, thats about as far as i go into the deep water bass fishing!
quantumman

Posted by "Wild Bill" on 2002 PM:

Some call me wild Bill, others just call me wild...

but if I am fishing with a rigged bass boat with a depth finder, I often fish the depth I want by boat position and casting angles using a t-rig, c-rig,mojo-rig, Jig, or even drop-shot rig, and that boat can be found often in the 20 to 30 foot zone, me casting to the ten foot to fifteen foot depth, and then dragging it back down to deeper water once the bright sun rises except for the spawn, especially if smallies and/or Spotted bass are involved, as I am looking for "memeory makers", not just a bunch of dinks. Yeah, I fish the shallow waters often dure to geographics, living on LI, but given big water, you now know where to find me often.
By knowing the shoreline dropoff rate that your working, and the depth your boat is positioned at[and maintained at by the trolling motor], you know very close as to how deep your bait is, just off or on the bottom.
For open water, you can drift a bait in a drop-shot rig , or jig, or spoon,vertically, and position your bait exactly by knowing how much line you let out over the side of the boat.
Obviously, these ways work only from a boat.

__________________
Share fishing with someone .

Posted by postcard on 2002 AM:

I've got to honestly say that 95% of my presentations never touch bottom. The lures I use are worked from surface to 1/2 the depth I'm in, even if sonar shows fish right on bottom.

Plastic worms (Texas, Carolina, drop shot etc.) account for my desperation attempts at locating post-front bass, but generally I cover water faster and more effectively with a large grub/ jig or a cb, etc. (ie. swim baits).

Again I'm a 15' or less angler, so a bait worked at a med. - slow and jerky retrieves, pulls 'em up from bottom to about 5-7', or less the shallower I fish.

In 4' or less, banging cranks into rocks is standard as well as jerking down to 2' only.

Senkos rarely rest on the bottom, except when the bite is really tough. I jerk-pause-jerk or walk them at any depth except bottom.

I'm patient, but only to the degree that I become drowsy and start to daydream about catchng fish fast and furious. That's probably why I don't win or place in some tournaments.

Posted by Travis on 2002 PM:

Steve, guess I missed this one.

" It is easier to control depth using mono, but is it impossible to do with a braid? "

Not impossible with braid. Impossible for me. It comes down to wanting the lowest diameter line that I can get away with. Using the sweep set nearly to the point of nothing else, line strength while important I don't feel I am going to break any line. Keep in mind MUCH of the tonage that makes up my lead box is 1/16 and 1/8 oz. My liking for a 1/16 comes from the fact that there is not much time difference in how long it takes that head over a heavier one to get to the bottom or near it. I'm not in a hurry when I am fishing. Add your choice of plastic to a 1/16 or 1/8oz. and how much does it weigh ? Usually enough, well at least for me. Besides, bottom isn't where I always want to be let alone go crashing to it without a choice. With a 1/16 or 1/8oz. I have a choice about being on the bottom, it isn't mandatory. Next time you're on the water count down a 1/16oz. head and then do the same with a 1/4 or more. Not much difference ehh ? I prefer to give them as long a look at my offering as possible. With the light head I also feel that I would be over top of fish looking up rather than under fish that are looking up. If fish are looking down, well hold on a second my bait is getting there... if need be.

"Do people use different lures to fish different depths or do they change size or weight or retrieve speed... "

Often times I will have the same lure , same color on two different rods, with one being either 4,6 or 8Lb test and another having a size bigger head and a different line weight on it to achieve a different drop rate...and change retrieve speed accordingly. If I am taking fish on the drop I will change lures accordingly and go from a horizontal to a drop bait. Some baits are both of course hmmm

" Do we treat still and moving water alike?"

I don't. Moving water, still water are much different. What is deep in a couple rivers that I fish I wouldn't consider that as fishable depth on some lakes. Current has to be read and understood. Typically my head weights for fishing deep river holes are greater than those that I fish with in lakes.

" Charlie Brewer had his ideas but do we all agree with him or have we come up with new wrinkles to improve his system? "

Other than his use of VERY short rods, I see no need to second guess his system. The only people I feel that would be wanting to mess with it are those that think it is too old, outdated, too simple and just plain can't work. I disagree with that thinking. The Brewer system has been the single biggest factor in my learning of HOW to get off the banks...along with some(a lot) nudging from Mr. Jig. I see no reason to mess with it. Would love to get into any brewer discussion with anyone that thinks that a change IS needed.

John, you're right the Brewers(I use the worm)is a horizontal bait. Or is it ? how many fish have taken that grub of yours before at a prescribed depth before you would normally start marrying the reel handle. Is it now a drop bait ? The Brewers isn't just a horizontal my friend.

Snoozers tube: ok they aren't hitting on the horizontal , you want to go vertical. A pop , or double pop off bottom fish are crushing it or quite possibly on the drop. What is the need to count down a tube ? cast it out, fish pick it up before it gets to the bottom. Super. Is it needed to know whether that is in 10 feet of water or 25 if they are hitting on the drop ? hmmm or are you speaking primarily of shaking a tube in their face right over top of them like you would with say a Hopkins ? Then of course there is no need to count down either because you can up your sonars sensitivity. My point being, with a Brewers it is optimal to count down(and be accurate) to best achieve that plane on the way back to the boat(if you don't fish it vertically), or be able to decipher a vertical from a horizontal take. Counting down is paramount. The tube....falling vertically from the get go. need to count it down ? you know where it is headed.

Things that help me:

I use the lightest possible heads that I can get away with(that I can feel)

I use funny handled rods with my thumb and forefinger wrapped around the blank.

If anything should escape my eyes, I feel it in the blank and up through my funny handle.

I watch my line constantly. believe it or not being able to sense a slack line bite with slack line lying on the surface and not seeing your line move at all. Bites can still in this manner mean fish in hand. Watch the line.Feel the lure and have an understanding of what that feel means.

I use the lightest mono I can get away with, for me that means that I am not re-tying every cast which i shouldn't be doing anyway because that means long travels across bottom which I don't do. By the lightest line you can get away with I speak of not putting undue stress on your line if using a head that overloads the line. For me 4-6 Lb test is used 95% of the time 8 Lb more in the rivers I fish, I also use it with the Sluggo and the Magic Stick or if I want a painfully slow drop with a trimmed down Brewers head or herb Reed ball and hang it in their face.

I mark my line in increments. I see the mark on my line and I know how much line I have out.

I trim lead heads a LOT to get the desired drop and or hang with a horizontal retrieve I am after. I buy larger heads and trim accordingly. So I keep side cutters and a file near me when I fish. River: where I fish and when I like to fish them an 1/8oz. and I am fine, I can trim from there. Nothing fancy there.

Rod tip: I don't feel that many anglers grasp what exactly their rod tip movements are doing to their offering. Especially true in water that you can't see your bait in. Making the old fashioned 4 inch rod raise to give a lure action isn't always the wisest thing. Nor is the infamous what I call a crawdad on meth movement...lure gets to where you want it in the column or on bottom for that matter and the rod is the first thing to raise from that 9 or 10 O' Clock position to noon. I have no idea what that is but if someone saw in a swimming pool what that does to a lure in the deep end I would HOPE that they would cease the activity. I like mundane. I like slow and I like simple. The most rod activity I will explore is using a tube pop or what I like to call quivering. Quivering is basically the same retrieve that one might put on a rapala to throw rings off the bait without moving the plug. Essentially your bait is stationary(can be done with a brewers) and you're sending vibrations into your lure without making it appear as if something off a store shelf.

Active fish: Ok Trav you use lead and plastic a bunch. yes I do. How do you catch fish when they are "active" ? If fish are to the point that they are feeding on everything including the prop it is easy. I fish the same. Personally I don't believe in the "bite". I don't think one knows if they are active until something hits a bait. let's face it, if you aren't getting bit how do we know they are chomping with reckless abandon. How to fish fast with a moving bait is something typically asked by those that fish buzzbaits, spbts and cranks. I they do believe there is a "bite". My reply is simple, if fish are that active why would they NOT want a bait moving a little slower. These so called active fish will hit a slower bait but try to catch non agressive fish(I don't know what they are either) with a fast moving lure and you're spinning your wheels. I knew that question would come so I headed it off at the pass.

Enough for now, T

Posted by joe pido on 2002 AM:

"Enough for now, T".....

funny.....

good thread.....

joe

Posted by mr jig on 2002 AM:

Well done Trav.

Your closing exactly reflects my line:
"Throw what they will always eat."
Best.
dick.

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Part 1-Topwater

Top to Bottom baits.
Although I am not a huge deep water guy primarily based on the waters in my geographical area, I can regularly take fish down to about 20 ft....although I too prefer to spend much of my time from surface to about 12ft. I could write about this all day but time won't permit that. Here is a basic over view of what I use to cover the depths I fish from top to bottom.

Surface: This all depends on cover. If I am working slop areas, I like a Snag Proof Tournament frog. I love floating worms, there was a time when I used these baits almost exclusively as I targeted slop areas. I could walk the dog with a 6" worm like it was nobodies business and I credit my largest unofficial NY bass to a floater. I really don't subscribe to the bright colors they come in. I like the plain grape or black/yellow that Johnson Superfloater worms were famous for. Rigged with a 3/0 Owner hook, the bait barely sank when paused. I also am a huge fan of using a 5" Kalin's Grub rigged Texas style with the tail down as a buzzer in heavily weeded areas. This bait can be devastating and comes through the Gak quite easily. In more open areas, I go with either a Sammy or Spit N Image. The key is an irregular retreive. Do something different with the bait, not just the typical snap, snap pause. Topwater was not always my bag. I forced myself to re discover it within the last year or so and I've become much more adept at it. I relied on it very heavily in my tournament fishing and it really paid off. If there is some chop on the water, I will employ a buzzbait. This is often a great way to annoy bass into striking. The thing about being effective with buzzers is that I prefer to look for obstacles to bump these baits into. Often, you will get a strike the instant after you smack into a branch or stump. The hesitation of the bait is what triggers the strike. The last bait I use as a surface bait is a mag willow spinnerbait. I will wake this bait and burn it just under the surface. In Spring and Fall, this can be a deadly method to catch fish that are active.

With the Exception of the plugs and blade baits, I primarily throw all of the other on a spinning rod with 6 or 8lb Yo-Zuri Hybrid. In the past I have used 12lb Silver Thread and up to 25lb Trilene for grubbing in heavy cover. Nowadays, I go much lighter for fun.

To be continued!!!!..............................next up-SubSurface methods

__________________
www.micromunchtackle.com

Posted by HookUp on 2002 AM:

Travis and Mr. Jig - great post. Waiting to read part 2.

As far as fishing in 10' of water, I can only wish I'ld find 10' holes in the rivers and streams I fish. If I did find this deep hole, I know I'ld find Walter waiting for some bait!

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Part 2 Subsurface

Sub surface can be broken down into several different areas. For my fishing, this means three different columns. The first column consists of just under the surface to about 5 or 6 feet. Now, many articles I read are broken down to about 8ft. I differ for a reason that I'll explain later. The Magic 8 foot zone is next this is where much of my big bass catching occurs and finally I have the bottom column. Often misunderstood or too intimidating, the bottom depths of many waters go ignored. Anglers only need to put in a little quality time to see that this area can be a goldmine.

Surface to 6 feet deep- Once I leave the realm of true floating plugs and I want to actually drown a bait, I start with a floating Rapala. I like the smaller models. Although I prefer to twitch them on the surface, I also pop them and pull them under. This is a deadly technique that I employ on hot Summer nights around matted vegetation. One thing I always do to Rapalas is change their hooks to Gammie trebles. I will add a soft plastic jrkbait to this section as I work it just like the Rapala minnow. A 4" Slug Go or Bass Assassin Twitch worm darted on the edges of matted vegetation can be deadly. I can write about this method all day but you get the point. Another crankbait and one of the only ones I throw is the Bandit Footloose. This bait barely dips under the surface when retreived steadily. It can be devastating in the shallows. I like using it in areas where the weeds grow about 10 inches from the surface. I know the bass are just waiting in the weeds to grab something buzzing overhead. The Footloose fills the bill on that. Hooks are OK and I usually do not replace them. The only other hard bait I throw is the Fat free Shad. This crankbait is amazing. I like both the shallow and deep models. I prefer a firetiger or bluegill pattern for my shallow fishing as there two colors best represent the forage in my area. Leaving the hard body baits, my next subsurface choice is perhaps one of the most versatile baits of all. The spinnerbait. Some guys just don't get them, others throw them too much. I rely on a version of this bait that will change with the seasons. In the Early Spring, starting in Feb(legal on LI) I utilize a 3/8oz bait with a single large Colorado blade I call a thumper blade. This blade is at least a size 4 and goes up to a size 6 depending on where I am fishing. Although it is a big blade, it does not give as much lift as a Willow and therefore can be slow rolled into deep areas. We are talking 5 ft for the sake of this area but I do use this bait to depths of 15ft or so at times. Slow rolling basically means to turn the reel just so the blade spins and the spinnerbait sinks. It is a very slow presentation and it is perfect for ice out fish who I tend to slam on blades. As the temps creep up into the 50's I go to the opposite side of the spectrum as far as spinnerbaits are concerned. Here, the bass are becoming more active and I scale me baits down to match very small creatures. I turn to the beetle spin. Many people write this bait of as a small fish or panfish bait but it can be a devastating weapon. I like the Branson bug trailer with looks like a mini Hula grub. It had twin tails and tiny little legs that create a racket. If fish it on light gear for sheer fun and it covers the 0 to 5ft depth quite nicely despite its light weight.

Plastics: I am a dedicated soft plastics guy. I've been lucky enough to deal with some very good companies over the years. To start, I don't just use any soft plactics. For the last 4 or 5 yrs, I have only used Yamamoto baits and small hanpours from even smaller known companies. As far as massed produced bait go, Yamamoto are the best. Their salt system is untouched and they simply catch fish. There is no need for me to own ten different brands. Hey, I can say plenty of negative things about price and durability but the baits out perform other brands hands down. I also use a ton of stuff from Northern Handpoured and GreenEyes Worm Works. The handpoured stuff is my favorite because of all of the customizing you can do.....extra glitter, salt, garlic, two tones etc. True California handpours are a wonder to look at. I can pour a good bait myself but guys like Chris Aljian from Al's Worms and Tom Kail from Northern are masters and damn good at what they do. They are way beyond basic. With that being said, my first shallow worm rig is a simple weightless Texas rig in which I emply a 4" finesse straight tail worm on a Gammie 2/0 or Owner 2/0 hook. It covers the whole range down to about 10 ft. You can actually alter the bait and throw on a Senko, Salty Stinker, Craw, anything. I prefer to skip baits into nasty places. Here is where I find many of my big fish. This type of fishing to me is target fishing. I seek a target and fish the target. I do not work the bait back to the boat. Once the bait leaves my projected strike zone, I reel in and cast again. The next rig I use is a seeker rig. I love both the mojo and split shot rig for shallow water applications. These rigs utilize a weight pegged or crimped on about 15 inches or so about the hook and are essentially shallow Carolina rigs. I favor the Mojo becasue I do not like to crimp a sinker down on the light lines thjat split shotting requires. Either way you get essentially the same result. The Mojo wieght comes through grass and rocks even easier than the split shot. The retreive is simple and slow steady.

Jigs: I would consider jig n pigs to be my strong suit. I cut my teeth on these baits and after forcing myself to use them noticed a significant increase in the size of fish I was catching. These ate target baits. Again, I locate a good piece of cover and pick it apart from different angles with a jig. I do not fish it back to the boat. At times I will swim a jig on slight slack line( Trav, you know all about that). This can be a great presentation when bass want something that is moving. I rarely fish jigs deeper than 6ft. I tend to stay with lighter jigs in 1/16oz and 1/8oz as these are great for slow falling in the trees and bushes. If I need to punch through heavy cover, I will throw a 1/2 oz or larger jig. Another bait I use just like a jig is the Ika. I love this bait even more than guys cherish their Senkos. The Fat Ika is just a big beefy overgrown Ika that fishes like a jig when rigged weightless and Texas style.

The Magic 8 ft zone:
Ok, here is where we will get technical. I believe, based on my experiences that more larger bass seek out this depth at different times of the year. In the Early Spring, big fish spawn and then move out deeper. In the Fall, they move out a bit deeper from the Shallows, in the Summer, they move out depper to seek a little cooler temperature when they are not feeding shallow. My point is that I've noticed that the 8 ft interval is a great place to start specifically targetting bigger fish. You may not always get them but if you put in the time you will see that they can be had. I'm not basing this on one or two fish either. I'm talking several hundred over the last decade to prove to me that at times this can be a very reliable pattern.

I pick apart the 8ft zone with a small handful of lures. Over the years one of my favorite intermediate area bait is the Slider worm rigged on a slider head. This bait is not fished like a typical Texas rigged worm. It is swept along the bottom and made to resemble a darter or sculpin which are bottom dwelling baitfish. It is a true UL technique and it is deadly. I have a good friend who was in a season long slump as far as big fish are concerned. Recently he got wind of this method and in the last two or three trips has cleaned up with several fish over 5lbs......you know who you are! One of my top 4 largest LI bass fell to a blackgrape slider worm. I've also taken a liking to the Brewers grub set up that several people talk so highly about on this forum. This is a cast and slow retrieve method that works in the 8 ft range. I prefer to use a watermelon Brewers gubs with the paddle tail. It gives off a decent vibration and that tail look like it is alive.
One method I like is dead sticking. I have caught more bass in the magic zone on this method than any other. It simply relies on a weightless Texas rigged bait in which you cast it out and kill it. Let it sink all the way to the 8ft level and wait until something eats it. I've done well with a 5" Senko both Texas rigged and wacky rigged as deadstick baits. One surprising method I use in this relatively shallow depth is drop shotting. This is a technique I really relied on this year for fun fishing. I use a basic rig consisting of a Gammie splitshot hook set about 18 inches above an Owner downshot weight. To me Tungsten does not make sese here especially if you are allowing yourself to lose weights. Any way, I use a 3" Do-Nothing worm by Green Eyes which is a tiny handpoured fry type of worm. It is amazing on this rig as it is quite flexible and had some action just by water movement. I cast this rig out and allow it to reach bottom. I use a light 1.16or 1/8oz weight. I keep constant pressure on the line to eliminate slack. At times I barely jiggle the rod tip to give the worm a bit of action. A strike feels like extra weight. It is similiar to a wacky rig bite in feel and your response has to be the same, no hookset. Simply start reeling and lift the rod and the tiny sharp hook will catch. I won a tournament on LI recently with this set up. It was about the only consistant method used all day. I've really come to appreciate this scaled down flounder rig for bass fishing. It is a great way to catch intermediate depth bass.

Next up......The bottom.........stay tuned! Quantum, Hook Up, Steve.....pay attention to the next installment.....same bat time, same bat channel........

__________________
www.micromunchtackle.com

Posted by "Wild Bill" on 2002 PM:

Too bad that Earthworm doesn't share info...

Earthworm,
You sure opened up your hand and head to us.
Lots of really great info there, ripe for the plucking by savvy and quick-thnking anglers. I really enjoyed part 1 and 2. Thanks.
Anticipating more great info in Part 3.

__________________
Share fishing with someone .

Posted by bass 64 on 2002 PM:

Hey Earthy these part 1,2,3's are getting me craving for another article in the worm hole. (cough, Cough) LOL

__________________
When in doubt, Texas rig........or fish the outgoing tide!

Posted by bass 64 on 2002 PM:

__________________
When in doubt, Texas rig........or fish the outgoing tide!

Posted by BradC on 2002 PM:

Put me in the shallow zone too.

Aside from throwing a C-rig, most of my fishing is less than 10' deep and almost always in cover, but I will venture deeper if I have to, but not happily.

I use four line sizes. A heavy .020 ish for my main C-rig line or for jigs in really nasty cover, a .015 ish line for almost all other baits, .010 ish for crankbaits and small topwaters and .008 ish for my spinning rods.

For plastics or jigs on the bottom or in cover, I like to use the lightest weight I can and still be able to feel the bottom or penetrate the cover. If I'm fishing those baits up in the water column, I will lighten the weight as needed all the way to weghtless.

For crankbaits, I will change bait design to fish the needed depths, but will then change line if I have to to get where I need to be. Heavy line really helps me keep a bigger Trap or Spot up out of shallow grass. Heavy line also helps when fishing cranks in shallow cover. Light line helps the baits dive deeper.

If I want a fast spinnerbait in shallow water, I can decrease the bait's weight, upsize the blades for more lift, etc. I can do the opposite to keep a bait in the depths more easily.

I liked the comments earlier on active and non-active fish. You can't decide this until you catch a fish, but even after you do catch the fish, was the fish actively feeding or was it an impulse strike? I look at is this way. IMO all fish have a strike window and are in some level of agressiveness from downright stubborn to ready to hit the next thing that comes within 10 feet of them. IMO there are usually several fish in an area with varying attitudes and strike windows.

I have used slow baits as search baits and I have used fast moving lures as search baits. I mainly fish tourneys, so I want to find some fish, any fish, quickly. I usually go through an area with a fast moving bait first to cover water quickly, looking for fish that have a wide strike window and that are willing to chase down a meal. Even if that produces ZIP or two limits of keepers, I will still go back over the same water with a slower method and pick apart things more trying to catch those fish with a smaller strike window and hopefully picking up a few more fish. Both passes will usually cover the water column from top to bottom. If both passes produce zip, then it's time to move or change strategies. After a few passes in a couple of places, I usually can tell which rods to put back in the locker and what to fish the rest of the day (unless the weather changes and that NEVER happens in a tourney :rolleyes.

Having a partner in the boat helps in the above as well as they can be fishing a different depth/speed than you and that will cover the water even quicker.

Of course, what I do will differ from what most others may do.

Good thread.

Brad

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

Re: Put me in the shallow zone too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BradC
[B]Aside from throwing a C-rig, most of my fishing is less than 10' deep and almost always in cover, but I will venture deeper if I have to, but not happily.

When I hear these comments I am always amazed! I was on the phone with quantumman and he said the same thing....Brad, I know you are a knowledgeable fisherman: how can you limit yourself to under 10 feet throughout a season?? If I were to do that, I would have so many bad fishing days, we have waters here that you must abolutely fish deep for major portions of the season to stay on fish...yesterday at Mahopac was a perfect example, a skunk of all skunk if not for fishing deep...... JOHN G

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Part 3- Angling the Abyss

Deep water and Bottom coverage-

Ok, so we covered the surface and depths to about 10 to 12ft. The Magic 8ft zone and all of the techniques there can be used arguably anywhere so I threw in the 10 to12ft column. Now we will venture forth into an area that many guys just plain ignore. Whether it is due to intimidation or ignorance, so many bass fisherman simply will not delve into deep water fishing. For the sake of this series, lets agree that deep water can be considered any depth greater than 15ft.

Once I decide to dedicate my fishing time in deep water, I need to re-evaluate my whole approach. Most of the rods that I utilize for shallower fishing are replaced with stouter gear. Some of the lures I choose for the shallows are also changed. First off, although I like those light action rods for many of the applications
I fish, I upsize a bit. 6-6ft medium action spinning rods are my basic choice for deeper water and I often go for a 7fter. The reason is simple, a longer rod moves more line on the hookset.
I will also use a baitcasting set up for a few techniques as well.

Lets get into the specific methods and baits. If I am fishing blind, without my electronics, there is no better rig and a Carolina rig. I won't get into the details of setting one up as we all know that by now. The Carolina rig is a great search rig. Many people opt for a lizard to tow behind the rig, I like a finesse worm or a soft jerkbait that gives off an erratic action. Slow and steady retreive is the key. This is one rig that fish' great on a longer rod. I prefer spinning gear with it though, I think it is just more comfortable that way. I won't use a Carolina rig deeper than 20 ft, any deeper and you just lose sensation with it. Sure the use of braid or superline could enhance sensitivity but I only like braid in a few situations and this is not one of them.

My next favorite worm rig is the Drop Shot. This is a great rig for deep water bass. Lets face it, the West Coast guys have been nailing largemouth and spots in water deeper than 60ft for some time now. This rig is similiar to the one I employ is the shallower situations except that I add a larger weight to the equation. I work the rig the same way except that I key on pods of baitfish or structure I locate on my LCD. I will work this rig in conjunction with my electronics trying to drop the rig in areas where I think fish will be. It is in my opinion the best way to present soft plastics at exreme depths.

I'm not much of a deep water jig n pig guys but when U feel the nned to jig, there is nothing better than the Yamamoto Hula Grub. Here is a bait I use exclusively on baitcasting gear as I prefer a 6-6 to 7ft Med Heavy stick. I like to use a hula head that keeps the bait weedless. Actually weeds are not my concern, rocks are. I lose a ton of baits to the rocks at various places I rish, but you have to be in it to win it! This rig is best fished on a taut line. I need to keep in contact with the bait to feel what is going on at all times. The Yammie Hula is one bait that nobody will be able to duplicate. Sure there are other copies but none come close.

Leaving the realm of soft plastics, my only entry's in the hard bait genre are the Arbogast Mudbug, Rebel Spoonbill and the Deep Fat Free Shad. I've always been a fanof the Fat Free series. These baits are my main duty crankbaits as I use them for all depths. The Mudbug is a special bait in itself. It has a metal diving lip and resembles a backwards swimming craw. I've done surprisingly well with it on LI in some of the deeper waters. Both of these baits are great at targeting structure. Their longer lips make them fairly weedless and snag resistant. I try to bump them off of deep structure if I can. The sudden stop and hesitation is what triggers strikes. I fish these baits on a 7ft Medium action baitcasting set up.

The Rebel Spoonbill deserves a special paragraph all to itself. If you can find a suspending version, snatch it up. This is one of those jerkbaits that can be magic when bass are deep and not relating to any specific piece of cover. The spoonbill is a deep diver and can be tweaked to hover in one spot with the addition of sticky weights or suspend dots. I use the bait in conjunction with my LCD to stick it right on top of fish I locate. Here is one of the only times that I look for bass on my Graph. I give action to the bait my snapping the rod tip up and litterally ripping the bait forward. If you do this for a good period of time, you will see that it is exhausting work and can give untrained hands blisters and sores. The result is often worth it as there are times when the bass will be suckers for the technique. You have to remember that you are likely fishing unpressured fish. The method may actually be less important than the reality of actually getting a bait to these fish. They may bite anything. You just have to put it in front of them. I change the hooks on the Spoonbill to Gamakatsu trebles.

Deep water Blade baits- To fish areas of moderate depth, I often use a single Colorado spinnerbait that weighs 3/4oz or more. Usually I am slow rolling the bait down points. I have found that you can be much more effective at this if you tackle the point from multiple directions, not just head on like most anglers do. A spinnerbait dragged across a point in 20 feet of water is a presentation that most bass have never seen. That is why it can be so effective. I utilize a Colorado blade for two reasons, first, less lift than a willow and much more thump. I can barely turn the reel handle and keep the bait on the bottom and still spinning. Don't expect your bites to be rod jerkers like they can be in shallow water. Instead you will likley feel extra mushy weight.

The final piece to my deep water puzzle is the jigging spoon. A Hopkins shorty, BPS lazer eye, Silver buddy or any of the heavy metal baitfish imitating spoons are my choice for deep water cold weather fishing. This type of bait was made to be used in conjunction with electronics. You have to search for baitfish schools or odd structure. I don't look for fish with my graph when using this bait as I think that is a very unreliable way to fish. If you find the bait, the bass will be close by, whether you see them or not. I know guys who have there LCD's so tuned in that they can watch their bait on the graph and literally bump a bass in the nose and watch it hit. Baitcasting gear again rules supreme in my opinion. I change the hooks to sharper Gamakatsus. This is a bait that I work in areas deeper than 25 ft. I've done wel with it in late November and again in early Feb through March.

I hope you all enjoyed my top to bottom series. Let the questions begin. Joe, I'm going to combine the three parts into an article on the Worm Hole. I also have another article planned buy I'm waiting on some help from our favorite female basser!

__________________
www.micromunchtackle.com

Posted by BradC on 2002 PM:

John.....

Believe it or not, I always find shallow fish here in my areas and rarely do I get skunked . We have no real clear water to speak of and there is an abundance of shallow cover, so there are always some shallow fish to be caught.

But like I said, I WILL venture deeper if I have to and mainly with a C-rig, which is my bread and butter method for covering water with plastics, even in shallower water.

I'm just not very good at fishing the depths.

Brad

Posted by Travis on 2002 PM:

" I liked the comments earlier on active and non-active fish. You can't decide this until you catch a fish, but even after you do catch the fish, was the fish actively feeding or was it an impulse strike? "

Thought perhaps someone would bite on that. How agressive does a fish have to be to eat ? and is that really a form of agression or is it instinct to eat to stay alive ?

Doesn't matter to me whether it was an impulse strike and I placed an offering in the fishes window or if a fish was actively feeding(whatever that is) as long as one is on my line....

T

Posted by BradC on 2002 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by Travis
" How agressive does a fish have to be to eat ? and is that really a form of agression or is it instinct to eat to stay alive ?

Doesn't matter to me whether it was an impulse strike and I placed an offering in the fishes window or if a fish was actively feeding(whatever that is) as long as one is on my line....

T

It's not about how agressive a fish has to be to eat...eating requires no real aggression. It IS though about how agressively the fish goes about eating and that is a key component to any pattern.

I have a great place to study bass across the street in the form of a small pond with healthy bass and a good supply of food, mainly bluegills. I can see how they act and I can fish for them in all conditions. I have learned over the years from the bass that they do in fact have different levels of feeding "activity" or "feeding aggression" and that these levels of activity do play a role in the overall fishing pattern.

Fish that are very active do not lock onto cover or structure as much, will roam quite a bit and will chase a bait for quite a distance. Fish this active do not require accurate casts, usually do not spook as much and allow for the use of faster moving lures, more water coverage with less time spent fishing the cover. Fish usually feed this way becaue their prey is also doing the same, roaming around eating other smaller morsels. Using slower lures and picking the cover apart to catch these fish would be a waste fo time mostly, especially in a tourney. In fact, I have seen times these fish would ignore a slow moving morsel.

I have seen many times when the fish are feeding just as well, but only in ambush mode from the cover/structure. These fish required more precise casts and would only hit the bait within a certain distance from the cover/structure. If you did not get your bait within this window, you did not get bit. Fishing the cover with a combo of fast and slow moving baits was the ticket. Fishing the water between spots was a waste of valuable time.

Then there are the fish that are little interested in food. I have seen a bass ignore food that was within an inch of its face, there for easy pickings. These fish required a bait that was repeatedly put in their face and they would finally strike, out of hunger, impules or anger, who knows, but it took a lot to get their attention.

So, yes, I do believe that there are "activity levels" and that trying to find the "activity level" of a bass is important to finding one of the pieces of a pattern......the proper presentation. I do know from my experiences that people who ignore how agressive fish are do not fare as well as they are not giving the fish what they want. Do you have fish that are feeding pretty aggressively and will knock the fire out of a topwater or crankbait, or are you gonna have to flip a jig 10 times on its head to finally tick it off into killing your jig?

Brad

Posted by Travis on 2002 AM:

Brad while I respect your opinions our on the water time differes greatly in that I would think:

A) that you fish tournaments

B) that you fish cover a great amount of time

c) going out on a limb, that you subscribe to bassmaster magazine or have before and probably have read it for years, just a guess

d) that when you speak of bass you are talking the green variety and them only

e) given the above of what I think is true, I won't get into your use of cover/structure as interchangeable terms....

"I do know from my experiences that people who ignore how agressive fish are do not fare as well as they are not giving the fish what they want"

I've fared ok

Good post, just much different than my views.

Trav

Posted by BradC on 2002 AM:

Good observations T!

quote:

Originally posted by Travis
Brad while I respect your opinions our on the water time differes greatly in that I would think:

A) that you fish tournaments

B) that you fish cover a great amount of time

c) going out on a limb, that you subscribe to bassmaster magazine or have before and probably have read it for years, just a guess

d) that when you speak of bass you are talking the green variety and them only

e) given the above of what I think is true, I won't get into your use of cover/structure as interchangeable terms....

Good post, just much different than my views.

Trav

A) Yep. 90% of the time.

B) Yep. 90% of the time

C) Yep, but I read only for ideas and to keep up with new things. On the water time is far more better than reading.

D) Yep. We have few smallies in Indiana and most of what we do have is in rivers - a whole different ball game.

E) I do know the difference between the two, really, I do. I just lump them together in conversation to keep things simple.

Thanks

Brad

Posted by BradC on 2002 AM:

To further expand on a fish's aggression....

I have seen times when a bass will not fully commit to the strike. They will lightly bite the bait or sometimes just slash at it or bump it. Usually a change in speed, action, size or color will get a more agressive strike.

I have caught many a fish on crankbaits and topwaters that were poorly hooked on just the back hook or were hooked on the outside of the mouth. They were hitting the bait, but only lightly, sorta half hearted. Usually after making a change in something - speed, action, size or color - the fish began hitting the bait more agressively and taking it more into their mouth.

I've had the same thing with Senkos. The fish would bump the bait, but never take it. I changed to a different color and they would eat it.

Just part of what makes the bass a fun creature to chase.

Brad

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

I for one do not feel a bass has to be aggressive to eat....he has to be hungry. What is the difference if a bass is slashing up a school of shad or simply half heartedly sucks in a frog off the surface?? Either way he has eaten. Brad in you last post, I think the fish you described were not feeding at all. There are times when you will see a bass nose a bait and not eat it. The spawn is one I can think of as well as when the bass is feeling territiorial. I've seen bass charge bluegills only to ram them and chase them away....not only near a nest.

Changing up color, size and action may infact envoke a strike in some instances. If you are a tournament fisherman you try to target active fish. Fish that are actively feeding will provided you with the most consistent action. I think Aggreesive was thrown in this thread in place of active.

Brad on Shallow water......my philosophy is that no matter what time of year, you can always find some of the bass population shallow. I prefer to fish shallow but sometimes the larger percentage of fish are actually deep. A good angler will be able to know when to abandon the shallows in favor of greener pastures.

Great thread guys! Trav, nice job you scientific Bass Guru!

__________________
www.micromunchtackle.com

Posted by BradC on 2002 PM:

I can fish deep, darn it!

Give me a C-rig plastic (Senkos work great here too ) and I can catch deeper fish as well as anyone else. The C-rig has won me a lot of money and points. My strengths are shallower, so that's where I am at home, but I can fish deeper water, just not as well.

Brad

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

HAHAHA, boy Brad, did we pick apart your first post! all in good tastes though...this has emerged into an excellent thread...thanks Earthy for reprinting one of your articles that fit this thread very well.....isn't it something Brad, that when people question some of what you write, in a good and constructive wayk, that it forces you to think about why we do what we do and further reinforce our fishing logics? JOHN G

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 PM:

Actually I made an article out of it based on my own posts. It worked out kind of nice. Anytime, I can be of help!!!

__________________
www.micromunchtackle.com

Posted by donw40 on 2002 PM:

earthy

great posts.. i am quite weak at fishing deep water ( >15') so really liked part3. you get any more detailed, i'll have to start printing the things out and stuffing them in the tackle box. lol

and before anyone bothers, i realize not fishing deep is a handi-cap, i have caught good fish deep and know they are there, and am working at improving my skills. lol

and anyone is welcome to teach me also.
;-)

dw

ps - john g, if your reading this, i realize you would like to have streaming video for knot tying and such, but don't forget, it is already one of the best sites out there.

if only i could find a site this informative and friendly concerning my other interests.
lol

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Don, like I said, I'd rather fishin shallow water myself. So many new variables open up when you start to get deeper. Wind and boat control are critical. Use of electronics is paramount as well. I think that the more depth anglers put between themselves and fish, the less confidence they have.

__________________
www.micromunchtackle.com