Posted by quantumman29 on 2002 PM:

Questionwhat do you do in this scenario?

you are in a tournament,during prefishing you found a dock isolated in a cove thats quite far from any other fish producing spots,but..... you have noticed at least 3 bass that are over 5 pounds each, problem is, theres lots of little bass 8 inchers and the like around all the cover,everytime you cast your lure,the little ones attack it,disallowing the big ones a chance,

you've switched to larger lures,the lure instead sinks too fast and the bass are not interested.

you revert back to the smaller lighter lure,the small bass attack the lure just before the large bass get a chance to grab it,

do you :

1) catch the little bass and livewell them?

2) do you continue to pull the bait from the little ones?

3) do you try every larger bait you have and possibly alarm the large bass that your there?

4) do you leave and return later?

5) do you eventually give up hope?

the larger bass seem to want to hit the lure,its just that they dont get a chance,plus the sunnies make things even worse by attackin the lure too.

theres gotta be a way,no?

quantumman

Posted by gemini70 on 2002 PM:

As a two year freshwater fisherman, my best bet would be number one. Unless you had too many little ones? I heard livewelling bass you have caught even if they are under sized is a good idea in a tourny, for not to scare away any other fish in that are.

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Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

frustrating indeed, and an interesting phenomena...catch as many of the little ones as possible, as you say, temprorarily live well them, leave the spot for an hour, return the small ones to the water wherever you are, then return to your spot and try again..... JOHN G

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Posted by Dean on 2002 AM:

How much of an issue is it to livewell small bass assuming they are under the legal size limit?

Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 AM:

Big issue

Most Tx have a rule for disqualification if you break any local "fish & game rules". So if you are in possesion of too many or illeagle fish, you gots problems.

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 AM:

Answer to th scenerio.

I would try this if the big guys where following the small bass after they where hooked.

Throw out, hook a small fish. Put your rod down and cast a second lure to the following bass. Or have your partner hook the small one and you cast to the big guy following.LOL

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Posted by Dominic on 2002 PM:

Putting small fish in the well is totally illegal (tourny or not) and using more than one rod in a tourny is also illegal.

Are you guaranteed those fish will be there? Do you need points, or are you fishing just for the win and want to bet your whole tourny on one dock. Do you have more fish somewhere else and can you catch a limit off them?

These are all questions that would determine if its worth a shot first thing. Its definitely worth going to, but at what cost. If you get there and another competitor is there, your screwed. This might be something I go to, to upgrade my limit. I would definitely leave time to fish it, but it wouldn't necessarilly be my primary spot.

Try all the routine lures, like Senkos, Jigs and soft jerkbaits, but also try something more out of the ordinary like a small crankbait,
floating Rapala or swimming a light jig/worm.Buzzbait?

Dom

Posted by gemini70 on 2002 PM:

Geez...lets not add to the scenario...I think the scenario is layed out enough. When you take a test at school ( and thats been a helluva a long time ago) your not allowed to change the question to make your answer right.

Sidebar...I though it to be illegal if you "leave" the lake with the undersized fish? Just like shoplifting, its not shoplifting until you leave the store.

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Posted by quantumman29 on 2002 PM:

Talkingshort bass in a livewell.....

you can keep the bass in the livewell as long as you dont get caught,in most tornies this is against the rules to have a small fish in the livewell,i would advise it,but if the fish your trying to catch are worth the possibilities of it,by all means throw the little ones into the livewell,remember,most tournaments state in the rules that there should never be more then 5 fish in the livewell,nothing about little shorts,thats your decision if you want to have little ones in your livewell!

most boats have 2 livewells,use one for the shorts the other for the keepers,thats what i would do,especially if the fish are worth all the aggravation!!

quantumman

Posted by Dominic on 2002 PM:

Gemini,
I wasn't changing the question. That is what I would ask myself in that specific situation. Just because there are a few fish in an isolated spot,a single dock, not even an area. I would have to give it some serious thought.

As far as the legal issues of keeping shorts in your boats well, that IS up to the individual. People on this board that fish tournies, organize and run them, shouldn't be making statements about breaking the rules, just to catch a few fish. Just because you don't get caught, it doesn't make it right or honorable.

Most organizations, as well as state institutions put a 12" limit on bass. Anything that is caught and kept that is under the limit is against the tournie rules and state law. There is no gray area here, its black and white.

Dom

Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 PM:

ExclamationI'm certainly not the seasoned tourney angler...

...but, I think we have to keep in mind the big picture here. Before this thread turns into a can of Senkos, I want to say that I'm actually glad Quantum has brought this subject up. In light of the issue at hand, it's a very good thing to discuss and get out in the open.

In the spirit of pure sportsmanship, which I must say I there is plenty of among many of those whom I have fished with and among in the 12 contests I've attended so far this year, I would call it unthinkable to taint a tournament winning effort with a temporary, but illegal livewell of undersized fish. NY Angling Laws require undersized fish be released immediately, no questions.

Personally, I'd have a hard time respecting someone who won by keeping and/or culling illegal fish to gain the prize. How would I know that the act of doing so was carried out in order to win? Well, I might be fishing a tournament where I might be fishing, not as his partner, but as his competitor, in the same boat.

It's not really a matter of conscience, but rather is that of the law. Omissions in tournament rules do not override the area angling laws. I'm sorry to say this, yet not.

My personal answers are 2, 3 & 4, in that order. If the shorts are barging in, keep trying for a little while, switching to differing styles of bait, yet similar in color and size, so as to possibly keep the big ones interested, but perhaps finding a small key difference that will cause the shorts to become disinterested. If this doesn't work, then perhaps a radical change in presentation is necessary. A last resort is to return later to see if the larger ones will get on first might be the only option. Hopefully you'll have another spot or two to hit while giving the big bass spot some time to simmer.

Fish every tournament to win, but do it in a sporting manner, with respect for other anglers and the fishing laws.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 AM:

Hmmm....

I wouldn't do anything different at all.

Because, I wouldn't be fishing in the tournament.

I would be totally enjoying my day on the water catching a bunch of fish yet hoping for the big bite. If the big bite doesn't come, I know I can come back there tomorrow or the next day or the next and search for it again... to bad for those in the tournament that the tournament would be over by then.

No disrespect intended... just wanted to give a non-tournament angler's point of view.

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Posted by gemini70 on 2002 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by Dominic
Gemini,
....

Most organizations, as well as state institutions put a 12" limit on bass. Anything that is caught and kept that is under the limit is against the tournie rules and state law. There is no gray area here, its black and white.

Dom



So the instant you put it into the livewell, you have broken the rule? I honestly thought it was at weigh in, or when you physically left the waters. I guess the it likes golf, that if your the only one that saw the ball move, the rule is in affect. They call golf the honest man's game, same rules would apply with the livewell.

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Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 AM:

Taking and Possession of Fish



The regulations are clear here. I added the bold areas myself. No possession of undersized fish. The last rule listed allows an angler to, in fact, have one bass over the legal limit in possession, as long as the process of culling a single fish ensues immediately. Note the application of this rule, which no doubt came into effect largely as a result of tournament bass angling, where the need to 'hold' one extra legally sized fish becomes necessary while the tedious culling process takes place.

As far as possession is concerned, should they happen to be inspecting the day of the tournament, the DEC will absolutely issue a citation if short fish are in the livewell, even for temporary 'holding' purposes. They have the right to see fish in possession, and may be so inclined to ask you to reveal your fish.

Here is the DEC site link for the regulations above:

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/...session of Fish

Again, a very good thread, making clear a highly controversial tournament angling scenario.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 AM:

Re: short bass in a livewell.....

quote:

Originally posted by quantumman29
you can keep the bass in the livewell as long as you dont get caught,in most tornies this is against the rules to have a small fish in the livewell,i would advise it,but if the fish your trying to catch are worth the possibilities of it,by all means throw the little ones into the livewell,remember,most tournaments state in the rules that there should never be more then 5 fish in the livewell,nothing about little shorts,thats your decision if you want to have little ones in your livewell!

most boats have 2 livewells,use one for the shorts the other for the keepers,thats what i would do,especially if the fish are worth all the aggravation!!

quantumman




As you are a director for a tournament tour I feel you should re think your advocacy of breaking rules.

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Posted by JPBass on 2002 AM:

Re: short bass in a livewell.....

quote:

Originally posted by quantumman29
you can keep the bass in the livewell as long as you dont get caught,
quantumman



Heck!! Why not just put um on the hook and use um for bait???

I gotta agree with the others. Some mighty poor advice there.

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Posted by gemini70 on 2002 PM:

Re: Re: short bass in a livewell.....

quote:

Originally posted by Bass Rat
As you are a director for a tournament tour I feel you should re think your advocacy of breaking rules.




OUCH.....

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Posted by donw40 on 2002 PM:

ouch!

While i am positive you guys are right that you can not posses the illegal fish, i don't know if it was necessary to hunt down and shoot gemini for being wrong.

he explained what he thought (shoplifting?) and was simply wrong. let the thread get back on track as it WAS an interesting read.

dw

Posted by JPBass on 2002 AM:

Re: ouch!

quote:

Originally posted by donw40
While i am positive you guys are right that you can not posses the illegal fish, i don't know if it was necessary to hunt down and shoot gemini for being wrong.
dw



It wasn't Gemini's posts to which Bass Rat and I were refering. It was Quantuman's

If someone wants to cheat go ahead. Personally, I would rather play the game by the rules and hope for the best.

And I have to agree with Nick (Bass Rat). If you're going to try to draw contestants into your tournament, advocating cheating is not a good way to go about it.

P.S. In a tournament situation this would be considered fraud and in most states, if caught, jail time is not out of the question.

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Posted by smallmouth sean on 2002 AM:

Quantum is reeling in some abuse for starting this one! Take it easy on your fellow nybass member. JAIL-FRAUD-ILLEGAL-DISQUALIFIED-DEC! The man just wants to catch the BIG fish!

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 AM:

Quantumman, Smallmouth Sean and others....

I realize that this thread has strayed off topic but when one posts something online they should realize that they're post can be ignored, praised, scorned or ridiculed. Many times the reaction to a post is overblown or just wrong and that's where the moderator of the board steps in.

In this case, we have a "torny" (sic) director who seems to be advocating cheating - even breaking New York State game laws to achieve his goal.

Obviously, I don't have to preach to anyone that cheating is wrong but I'm not sure if some of you realize the implications and ramifications that could beset the person whom is a tournament director and a self proclaimed "fine tuned bass tournament fisherman" whom also is active on the net promoting his sport and tournament trail.

Personally, I pretty much ride the fence on tournament fishing. Many times I abhor them but often wonder how I would do if I joined a bass club and tried competitive bass fishing. Most of the time I hear cool stuff about clubs and tournament fishing that make them pretty appealing but, every now and then, I hear stories that make me wonder why anyone would bother.

I've heard stories about pre-caught kickers kept in livewells, boaters turning off the aeration system in their non-boaters livewells and I've heard about illegally caught fish kept (snagged). I'm not too happy about some bass clubs handling of the fish and the way they return them to the water. Now, I'm disappointed that a fine tuned tournament bass fisherman and a director of a tournament trail advocates cheating... actually, he advocates breaking the law to win a damn tournament.

I ask rhetorically, "Why would anyone want to join a bass club and not be sure if they're playing on a level playing field?"

I hope that I and the others misread what Quantumman wrote and that he actually meant something else.

I anxiously await his response.

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Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by JPBass
If someone wants to cheat go ahead. Personally, I would rather play the game by the rules and hope for the best.



Well said, JP. It comes down to that in just about everything in life.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by smallmouth sean on 2002 PM:

Tony, I'm with you all the way about tournament fishing .Sometimes it makes me sick at the way the "catch and release" is handled.Sacks of fish with 5 nice bass in them with barely enough water in it to keep a goldfish alive. Dead fish floating to the top because of the stress imposed on them for a prize or trophy!
People quickly forget that it takes about 7-8 years for a smallmouth to grow to 3-4lbs in new york state!
Cheating in tournaments or New York fishing regulations shouldnt be taken lightly by any means. I just wish there were stricter penalties for people that handle or play around with "undersize " fish in this state.
Start taking care of the fish you catch because some day there might not be any to catch!
My opinion!

Posted by Lpbassman on 2002 PM:

Larger bass will usually suspend underneath the smaller schoolies that are snatching up your lure. Try this:
Use a carolina rig with a heavy weight to bring your bait down quickly past the hungry shorts. The bait will then be suspended below the striking range of the shorts and will probably be in the strike zone of the larger bass you are targeting. If you use a floating or suspending bait it should float right back to where the big boys can get at it. If this does not work after a few casts.....GO SOMEPLACE ELSE!!!!

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Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

I was away in Boston this weekend, so I missed this thread to which JP alerted me to: in a way, it has evolved into something that I let Scully's Maho post go into, that one being my fault, nonetheless, there is an awful lot of information contained in this thread, useful info, espcecially that which Rob took the time to type about the actual rules and regulations, so as long as it doesn't go into some spittin' and fightin' type of thing, I think it should stay on, Mike ( Quantum ) certainly has a right to come back on and answer what was said, and I'm sure he will do so in a very patient and intelligent manner ( Won't you Mike?! LOL)


JOHN G

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

1) catch the little bass and livewell them?

2) do you continue to pull the bait from the little ones?

3) do you try every larger bait you have and possibly alarm the large bass that your there?

4) do you leave and return later?

5) do you eventually give up hope?

Quant, I know you are a tx guy and I felt you would never do the #1 option. Even though you stated It is ok as long as you do not get caught, I hope you were joking. If not, then why don't you just get a bunker snagger and snag the three big bass without even worrying about the little guys? I'm a tournament dirctor for a small club whose integrity is top notch. Cheating has never been even a slight thought in any of our minds. Good group of guys, Thanks EEBA for making my season easy. Quant, you have some 'splainin to do.

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

What I would do>>>>>> I'd throw a jig n pig. It usually attracts bigger bites. I would follow it with a tube and then a soft jerk like a Fluke.

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Posted by quantumman29 on 2002 PM:

Talkingas comical as it sounded........

being the director for a tournament trail myself,and having never had this problem occur to me during any tournaments,the little fish over the larger fish that is,

i simply suggested keeping the little fish in the livewell while there a chance for you to catch the larger fish,in my rule book it states there shall be no more then 5 fish in the livewell at one time,

the rules also state that there shall be no fish under the stated minimum length to be weighed in,

with this in mind,and also being in mind that the little bass will be released unharmed rather quickly, i see no indication that this is cheating,for all intenets and purposes,for the 2003 tournament season upcomming,i shall write a letter to the home office of the
ABA indicating to the officials about a scenario like this and what is and what isnt considered cheating,

for the most part it has been seen and witnessed many times during tournaments by both me and many other tournament anglers where is the xase that prior to weighing in your fish ,you
grab the official weigh in ruler(which is normally an exact duplicate of the official ruler) and you measure your bass again,
while its safe to say that all rulers are quite different,is it considered cheating that you find out that one of those bass in your livewell is only 11 inches now when measured?

as the sport of bass tournament angling goes and so do i,
I HAVE NEVER PURPOSELY CHEATED,OR EXCUSED ANYONE FOR CHEATING,NOR HAVE I CONDONED CHEATING,in my thread i was simply asking what would you do in this scenario,theres many variables to livewelling the short fish:

1) are you immediately catching them,then removing them quickly to another location?

2) has it been stated prior to the event that there will be no short fish kept in the livewell at any time?

3) if you purposely knew you were cheating,then by all means you deserve the outcome of the final results,as in this case where i never stated in the original thread whether the act of livewelling the little fish was illegal,then for conversation purposes,we can all accept the fact that in this particular scenario,
the removing of the little bass and relocating them or holding on to them while the larger fish are caught is simply a sporting way of upgrading your catch from a small fish to a large fish!

i also stated in a reply that if the rules were unclear,and they were not verified to this exact scenario,then by all means do what is needed to do to catch the larger fish,

LIKE I ALSO SAID,I DO NOT CHEAT,NEVER WILL,NEVER WILL ALLOW IT,AND NEVER WILL TURN AWAY FROM A CHEATER AND ALLOW HIM/HER TO ACCEPT ANY REWARDS IN ANY TOURNAMENT FOR CHEATING.

but in all fairness,this post was thought up by me for both educational and personal enjoyment for all,there shall be many different out looks on a scenario like this and many of them will be great while many of them will be in controversal format,this is what makes postings so great,it allows us all the oppurtunity to voice our opionions,

if i offended anyone or if anyone has a lesser feeling about me at this time,thats their choice,many times things are taken out of concept differently through different people and their identifying with a certain variable,in this case i never meant to APPLY TO THE FACT THAT CHEATING WAS AN ACCEPTABLE WAY TO COMPETE,I ALSO MADE A COMICAL REMARK SAYING:IF YOU CHEAT,DONT GET CAUGHT! BUT IS THIS CHEATING?????????????????

QUANTUMMAN

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 PM:

Quantumman,

I'm very happy to hear that you don't cheat and don't condone cheating.

I think you're missing one point though and should realize that state and local laws takes precedence over any tournament rules. All tournament trails that I know of indicate in their rules that any local laws take precedence over any rules or omissions that they may have in their rulebook. As the guys have pointed out, New York state law explicitly states that fish smaller then 12 inches have to be released immediately. This is very clear.

So you understand our confusion, in your original post, you stated that "bass 8 inchers and the like". Then later, you stated that one should put these little bass in the livewell so that the bigger fish might be more apt to be caught. This practice would be illegal in New York State and against the rules in any tournament in New York State. I don't think that there is any need to write the ABA for clarification because I believe it is crystal clear.

As for your point that an angler measures a short on the official weigh in ruler. If that fish were less then 12 inches and a New York State game officer measured it, that angler would be written up - no doubt about it.

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Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

Mike, thank you for the well written and very explanatory reply.... I knew you could do it! LOL......

Funny, I was the one who mentioned keeping the little ones in the live well temproarily and then releasing them somewhere else, not realizing that that was actually illegal, so I took some mud in the face...

Please keep in mind, anyone who saw that, that I have never in my life, so far, put any fish into a livewell, and that since I have had my new bass boat, or even the old one, have I ever turned the live well on, instead using it for storage purposes.....having never used a livewell, or ever kept any fish, I gave an ignorant answer of which I apologize..


JOHN G

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Posted by quantumman29 on 2002 PM:

Unhappyapologies forth set as well.........

as i can actually attest to as well,i can not recall ever placing a illegal fish knowingly in the livewell,i also wasnt completely aware of local and state laws,i do know its illegal to keep a short fish with intentions to bodily harm it or eat it,i simply suggested placing the lil fish in the livewell for a short period of time then release them,for all its worth,

it was a simple question of what would you do in this case,after reading some of the posts i then replied,unwittingly were some of my replies,but then again,this is a fictitional question,although it has the possibilities of becomming reality,the percentages of my actual doing what i wrote i would do are far less then the actual writtings implent,

for all its worth,i think in reality terms,i would actually try to catch the larger bass as soon as possible while in the same time i would try all i can to deter the little bass from attacking my lures,
as is the case most times,if you rip a lure away from an aggressive smaller bass,most of the times the bass will stop attacking something it has given up on time and time again,thus allowing for the lure to stay in the strike zone possibly longer for the larger bass to attack after the comotion!

quantumman

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

My response was based on the 8" bass thing. If you have legal small fish in your livewell and remove them once you get a larger fish, that is called culling and is a perfectly legal practice. As I stated, I thought you were talking about putting 8" fish in your livewell.
If you put an 11" fish in your livewell only to discover this at weigh in, this is called carelessness. I am not a seasoned tournament angler but I always know what I have in my livewell. I also have an uncanny ability to estimate weight within ounces. I think I am more reliable than a Berkley scale at times. I measure all fish before they go into my well. I clip anything that is close with a colored cull marker. Not busting your chops, just wanted a bit of clarification...thanks for explaining.

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Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 AM:

I could see an 11 7/8" making it accidently - even then, maybe not. But 11"? I have been in tournaments where trying to get the 'most' out of a short fish, by measuring it extra carefully, didn't quite qualify the fish for the livewell. Many tournaments flat out disqualify a contestant for the posession/weighing in of short fish. When fish are running that small, break out with a "Golden Rule," a tape measure, etc., and measure those little guys. Why risk getting DQ'd for an eighth of an inch?

Here's a hint that I learned from John "Sea Jack." If a bass is measuring slightly short, say 11 7/8", try flipping the fish over and measure it lying on the opposite side. if the fish lays 'flatter' on the other side, you just may get a longer read, and the fish would, indeed, be a legal 12". If the bites are infrequent, you just may be able to put an extra 14 or 15 ounces into the livewell for you. Many anglers know this can sometimes make a drastic difference in the outcome at weigh in time.

Tight Lines...

P.S. Props to Quantum for making good on the potential for the promotion of livewelling the shorts.

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Posted by gemini70 on 2002 PM:

Re: ouch!

quote:

Originally posted by donw40
While i am positive you guys are right that you can not posses the illegal fish, i don't know if it was necessary to hunt down and shoot gemini for being wrong.

he explained what he thought (shoplifting?) and was simply wrong. let the thread get back on track as it WAS an interesting read.

dw




thank you my friend....

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