Posted by ADKBass on 2002 PM:

Sinkers Sunk

Tried to locate old thread on this but could not find.
Anyway -- thought you might be interested!

NY--Sinkers Sunk
State to limit sale of lead fishing sinkers

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) _ The state Legislature on Tuesday prohibited
the sale of most lead fishing sinkers in an effort to protect wildlife and rid the food chain of the potentially lethal poison.
The measure will be effective in two years and apply only to lead sinkers weighing a half-ounce or less. Steel and other metals
are already available in many fishing tackle stores and are as effective as lead.
``We already took the lead out of gasoline and paint and now
it's time to remove lead from our fishing ponds, streams and lakes,'' said Sen. Carl Marcellino, a Nassau County Republican who
sponsored the bill. The measure also seeks to end the hazardous
practice of biting down on lead ``split-shot'' weights to affix the
sinker on fishing line.
The measure has been approved by the Assembly. Gov. George
Pataki will review the legislation, a spokeswoman said.
``Loons, swans, herons and a couple of dozen other birds eat the sinkers, thinking they are small stones,'' said William Cooke of
Audubon New York. ``They regularly eat stones to aid their
digestion ... this is one of the most effective tools at New York's
disposal for protecting the state's waterfowl.''

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Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

Well, it was inevitable....just hope they dont expect us to throw away everything we have.....forbidding the sale of New stuff is fine, but fishermen buy hundreds of jig heads at a time...... JOHN G

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Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

Just saw this article

ADK,

Was just writing a news article on the same subject, when the new NYBass senior editor (my wife) told me someone just posted about it, yes she was sitting behind me while I was typing it and critiquing me.....thanks Frankcussin....LOL

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Posted by ADKBass on 2002 PM:

hope it helped.?

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Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 PM:

I saw a Loon on the Susky last week, while fishin' it with Greg Hill. The FIRST time ever that I have seen a Loon on the river. I threw a handfull of split shot at it!

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Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

that's it Will,,,,,feed the little birdies! LOL............... JOHN G

Posted by hvbassmaster on 2002 PM:

Remember the artical says SALE not use so if you buy on line or make a trip to BAL to BPS you can get lead jigs and such!

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Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 PM:

YEAH.... You can tell the "powers-that-be" put a LOT of thought into this one! Can you spell a-p-p-e-a-s-e-m-e-n-t? And the "do-gooder, tree-hugin', spotted owl kissin, leg warmer wearin', caffe latte drinkin', lesbian whale watchers" win another one!

__________________
Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 PM:

"Lead a Luxury"

Well, I've been watching the scene, and see that steel is becoming more and more common. I guess it's going to be just about the only thing commonly seen on the shelves from now on.

Hate to say it, but the legislation makes sense, even though I'm fond of lead weights. I wonder if this is a ban only on the SALE of lead products at the retail level. What about those who pour their own from molds? Guess we shall see...

Say goodbye to most of our lead standbys in two years! Lead is now considered a luxury, and luxuries - especially those deemed hazardous - tend to be done away with.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by DR on 2002 PM:

Guess that means EVERYTHING ....sinkers, jigs, jig heads, tube heads crappie jigs......you name it, will all go to steel??????

DR

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 PM:

easy gypsy

I got leg warmers..............LOL

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Yeah Will........

......I'm a lesbian!!!!

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Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 AM:

I've "french kissed" an owl or two in my day too!

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Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by Mark G on 2002 AM:

So, Earthy...

As one of NYBass's resident tackle manufacturers who uses lead, how will this effect your business? Are MicroMunch jigs going to cost more since you will have to make them out of steel, brass or some other metal? Are you significantly concerned about how this will effect your business?

I've used brass slip sinkers for a while now, due to my personal belief that they are more effective due to the sound they make when used in conjunction with glass. But the jigs I use, and the spinnerbaits, buzzbaits, split shots, drop shot weights, and many other elements are made of lead. Will this cost us a lot more money in tackle? Any idea how much?

I'm not sure what to think.

Mark

Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

Mark, I have to wait to see the exact wording of this bill. I will tell you that I do 95% of my business out of state so it won't effect me here that much. Perhaps if my little jigs are included in the ban, I will have to toe the line a bit. It remains to be seen. I'm not worried about it at all.

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Posted by JeffLang BVS on 2002 AM:

What's next Lead Bullet Ban

" If I shoot you I might not kill you but you will get a nasty case of lead poisoning" LOL Freeze or I will give you lead Poisoning!

Jeff BVS

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

Actually Jeff......

Jeff,

They are actually making environmentally safe bullets, not sure what they are made of but the FAA air marshals will be using them as they turn to dust as they hit a hard object so as not to damage an aircraft, I also believe a few large police departments may in the future use them as there is less risk of injuring an innocent bystander by a ricochet.

Also duck hunters have been using bismuth and steel shot for quite a few years now.

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---
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scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by bobn on 2002 PM:

i'll bet that jigheads, tube weights and anything else that is attached directly to the hook will cost considerably more because of the more complicated annealing process which will be needed so as not to distemper the wire hook--lead melts and cools quickly--anyone with a mold can work with lead--steel or any combination thereof is totally different--there goes the little guy and the do it yourselfer--these weighted hooks will probably have to be made when the hook is being manufactured--just my thoughts--bobn

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

Bobn, The law only states you can't sell um, not you can't make um.

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Posted by Marty on 2002 PM:

"And the "do-gooder, tree-hugin', spotted owl kissin, leg warmer wearin', caffe latte drinkin', lesbian whale watchers" win another one!"

FISHIN' GYPSY, I'm not sure what leg warmers, cafe latte and lesbian whale-watchers (or straight whale-watchers, for that matter) have to do with lead sinkers. And I'll hazard a guess that tree huggers and spotted owl kissers have been involved in activities that have resulted in improved water quality and better fisheries.

I was an active birder for 15 years and, believe me, birding groups are no less concerned about threats to birds than you and I are about threats to fish.

An editorial in the Rochester paper stated that lead is a threat to loons and 20 other species of waterfowl. It also stated that half of all loon deaths nationwide are attributed to sinker poisoning. I have no idea if that is true or where the data comes from. But if it is close to true, then a ban on lead is the right thing to do, even though it will be a great inconvenience to us anglers.

Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 PM:

Marty ( With three whole posts to your credit),

LIGHT'EN UP!! I was trying to be sarcastic! And... If you are a legwarmer-wearin', caffee lattee drinkin', lesbian whale watcher... I appologize! The POINT I was trying to make... That ANOTHER one of your freedoms just went down the drain... An NEW YORK anglers stood by and LET it happen. If you think this is NOT the beginning of a BIGGER agenda... GUESS again! Do you know how a mouse eats an elephant? ONE BITE AT A TIME!!

Believe me YOU do NOT care for the environment MORE than I do. Nor have you put in any more time as I have to better and protect the environment than I have.

LASTLY... I will not get into this debate, AGAIN, over how many Loons have died from lead poisioning. The numbers are miniscule and this whole lead ban thing has nothing to do with Loons.

How many deer are killed by car each year? BAN CARS??
How many bird nests are destroyed by logging each year? BAN LUMBER??
How many fish are gutt-hooked and die each year? BAN FISHING?
How many LOONS are hit and killed by boats each year? BAN BOATS?

I could go on and on and on with examples, but hopefully even YOU can get the idea.

__________________
Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by bobn on 2002 PM:

how cum the lead doesn't seem to affect the cormorant--do they use pebbles to aid in digestion?-bobn

Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 PM:

NO... They're just UGLY and don't make beutiful sounds. Nobody CARES about them. Come to think of it, if that is the case.... I'M REALLY IN TROUBLE!!

__________________
Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

HAHAHHA, Gypsy you really rip me up!

when I was born, I was so ugly, the doctor cut the cord and went out in the back and hung himself with it....

I was so ugly, my mother breast fed me through a straw....

My proctologist stuck his finger in my mouth!!

of course, that last one is very funny if you know what a proctologist is...LOL........ JOHN G

Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 AM:

That's a guy who specializes in the treatment of "Proc"!

When I was little...

My mother would tie a pork chop around my neck... So the dog would play with me.

When I was born... The doctor slapped my FACE!

I had to sneak up on a water fountain to get a drink!

__________________
Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

how about this girl I went out with......why she was so ugly that:

when she walked into a room, the mice jumped up on chairs!

I took her to the top of the Empire State building, planes starting attacking her!

I gave her a hickey, and got fur in my mouth!

when I took her home to meet my parents, they put newspapers on the floor!

what an ugly chick! at Christmas, they used to hang her and kiss the mistletoe.....

her mother used to press her face into fresh dough and make Gorilla cookies!

when I met her, I bent down to pet her cat.......IT WAS THE HAIR GROWING OUT OF HER LEGS!!

an ugly chick I tell ya....

JOHN G

Posted by Marty on 2002 PM:

"Marty ( With three whole posts to your credit), "

FISHIN' GYPSY, I don't care to discuss the issue further or to comment on your silly analogies (like ban cars due to deer-car accidents), but I'd like to know what the significance is of the fact that I had three whole posts?

Maybe John will help me out here: are posting privileges proportional to the number of one's accumulated posts?

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Marty
"Marty ( With three whole posts to your credit), "

Maybe John will help me out here: are posting privileges proportional to the number of one's accumulated posts?

Marty,

I will help you with this, all people who contribute, whether it be with advice to others or with questions about fishing in general are welcome here. So with 1 post or 1000 posts you both have a right to state and debate your opinions as long as it is kept civil.

As the Fishin' Gypsy does to some extent I feel, although not with his extreme views, but there are overtones of animal rights groups behind this law, both senators that sponsored the bill have had close dealings with these groups that would like to take our rights to hunt and fish away.

Half the loon deaths in the United States, that sounds so numourous but unfortunately you fell for a news paper trick to add impact to the story, if I told you half the bass you caught and released may die would you stop fishing? Averages and statistics can be manipulated easily, many politicians do it everyday to get the results they want.

As with FG's statements cars kill people and animals everyday but the majority of the people need them, if car owners were a minority, no doubt cars would be also banned.

Don't get me wrong, not one person here wants to impact the environment adversely but how far do we go to remove ourselve of causing adverse affects? PETA and such groups would like us to never interact with any animal, that even means watching birds.

__________________
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Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 PM:

Marty,

It really doesn't matter to me if someone posts 1 time or 1000 times, they are welcome on this board. But I took exception to the fact that only your third post on this board was to get on my case about this lead issue. And this exception is between you and ME and has nothing to do with the board. This lead subject has been dealt with extensively in past posts, and a visit to the archives would be suggested.

Maybe I am a little radical about some things. SOME of us have to be... Or the "watergates", "contra affairs", etc. would NEVER come to light. AND... I am NOT against clean water or protecting the environment either. There are several plaques on my wall from "General Motors", "Field and Stream", "Exchange Club", and others, attesting to the work I've done on environmental issues.

"Half the Loon deaths are attributed to lead"!! What about the OTHER half of Loon deaths?? And... When you are talking about 22 Loons in 27 years, that's less than one Loon per year. Let's see some hard data, scientific FACTS on these claims.

I have a lot of friends in the fishing tackle manufacturing business, and the lead bans in California, New Hampshire and other places have already affected their businesses. Who is going to be the first one to bitch about his taxes going up when all of these people are out of work and on welfare? Not just the tackle manufacturers, but the lead miners, the companies that make their equipment, the companies that make the parts for the companies that make that equipment and right on down the line. To the Wal-Mart laying off employees, because the lead miners don't have any money to spend, to the people who design the Wal-Marts that won't be built. Extreme examples? YES! But I'm trying to make a point here... Don't take EVERYTHING I say literally.

You think you have to wear a seat belt (when you drive) or a helmet (when you ride a motorcycle) because the government cares about your safety and well being?? Bull hocky!! The politicians were paid off by the insurance companies TO SAVE MONEY. NOW... Before you get the wrong idea about THAT... I wear my seat belt ALWAYS... I just don't think the government should be telling me I HAVE TO. It's MY LIFE, if I want to put it in jepordy, and I'm not hurting anyone else in the process.

As far as my "silly" analogies... Tell me WHAT is the difference between protecting Loons, or protecting deer? Because car owners are in the majority? The principal is the SAME! But... Again, this was only an analogy and not something I expected anyone to take literally.

But... That's OK! You are entitled to your opinion... And I am entitled to mine.

__________________
Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

Marty, even if you have not been around here too long, you are obviously still entitlted to state your opinion.....Gypsy has made a very strong case however, and he is speaking from a lifetime of experience from which he has derived a good part of his income from environmental sports. If he were to print a "resume" of his career on here, and I know he wouldn't, it would knock yours and everyone's socks off...however, that still doesn't give him the right to insult you if that is how you took it, I will tell you that many of his comments are really tongue in cheek, and that is where having been on the board or several of these board for some years go a long way in understanding certain poster's ways and personality.....if this is an issue that you feel strongly about, by all means write more here about it...what Gypsy is suggesting in his admittingly bludgeoning manner (LOL) is to get ALL the facts and not react in a knee jerk reaction at first to what they are saying.....Marty if you have already read further into this issue, please add to it, I insist.......... JOHN G

Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 AM:

John G,

I agree with you "whole-heartedly" and it was NOT my intention to insult Marty. Even though I was insulted by Marty's comments.

In this big, wonderful, crazy world, it is easy to forget our responsibilities to ourselves, our country and our fellow americans. Believe it or NOT, I do NOT belong to "John Birch", "Neo Nazi Party" or ANY OTHER organizations (except BASS, The Naional Fresh Water Fishing Hall of Fame, The NRA and the Greencastle Sportsman's Assc.) I am just a staunch believer in OUR constitutional RIGHTS, and I MEAN EVERYONES RIGHTS!

The federal and state governments keep "nibbling" away, one LITTLE thing after another, until we COULD wake up some morning and be in the same situtation as the Poles in 1939. And don't think it CAN'T happen. Like I said... "A mouse eats and elephant... ONE bite at a time!"

How can we OR they, single out one species of animals to protect, such as Loons, and disregard many others. I deal in FACTS, and DATA, not histerical ramblings by do-gooders and panty waist politicians. Let's see some hard data and FACTS as to how many Loons are ACTUALLY dying from lead poisoning. And decide, rationally, if this amount of "die off" is critical to the survival of the species and WORTH the far reaching after-effects of passing such a law. NOT just go passing laws to appease some "special interest group". If thousands, or even hundreds, or even dozens or Loons were dying from lead poisoning, I would be the first to write my congressman, senators and the National Wildlife Federation. BUT THEY ARE NOT!! I agree that getting rid of all automobiles, to protect deer, is ludicrous, but I was only trying to make a point that if you can use the death of one Loon per year, to effect the lives and sport of THOUSANDS of people... Is it REALLY worth it?? Is it really the RIGHT thing to do?? PROVE to me that it is... And I will fight for it to the death... Or at least until I am slightly ill.

__________________
Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by Marty on 2002 PM:

F.G., sorry you were insulted by my comments. However, I sympathize with environmentalists and intensely dislike terms like "tree-huggers" and "spotted owl kissers." I also have friends who take whale-watching trips, so the term "lesbian whale-watcher" offends. Now that we've both taken offense at each other's comments, let's call it even. I harbor no ill will. Although I'm new to posting here (lurked here a long time), I'm a fishing forum veteran and, regretfully, this is the first contentious debate I've ever been involved in.

I stand by my original post about sinkers. Yes, the editorial stated half of loon deaths are attributed to lead poisoning. I said I don't know if that is true or where it comes from. Then I said, and the operative word is "if", IF this is close to true, then a lead sinker ban is warranted. Knowing the high mortality rate of most animals, it's safe to say that many thousands of loons are dying each year; I would love to know how many are due to lead poisoning.

As to government taking away our rights, like our right to use lead sinkers or our right to not wear seat belts, that is true up to a point. I hate to sound like civics 101, but sometimes we tend to forget that the government is us. I would venture a guess that even if seat belt laws came about from insurance company payoffs, they would be repealed if the people didn't accept it. If there's one thing that politicians lust after more than money, it's votes. I firmly believe that the majority of people tacitly support most of our laws and regulations, if they opposed them strongly enough, they wouldn't be on the books.

By the way, I'm not a PETA person. Although I support animal rights, I also accept the fact that man uses animals to supply some of his needs.

Well, I've rambled enough, it's been a pleasure participating in this thread. :-)

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

Marty and Gypsy, very well spoken both of you...great great replies! If I may loosely quote the bible, in the first chapter of Genesis, there is a great line that kind of goes like this: "And God made man in his image and he gave him Dominion over all the animals of the earth and mastery over all the birds of the air and all the fishes of the sea"

You can go direct to get the exact wording, but I think that sums it up....WE ARE THE BOSSES....and I have said this many times on here....However, Marty made such an excellent point, about the government being us, and that applies for all types of rules and regluations, we make em' and we can change em'....just gets a little hard getting people to change once something has been set into place. JOHN G

Posted by bobn on 2002 PM:

F-G-the reason we are required to wear seat belts and helmets is it keeps the insurance costs down-- the govnt doesn't care if you wear a motor cycle helmet or a seat beat when you drive because they love you-not so-it's because if you get hurt it drives up the insurance rates for everyone else--in new york we have personal injury protection on our ins policies--everyone pays a premium to have this coverage--it is mandatory--a nys law--i don't want to pay more because you feel you don't have to wear a seat belt or a helmet-its not your life when it comes time to pay--the cold hard facts are it's the consumers wallet--not just my .02 but the facts--26 years in the business----bobn

Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 PM:

That's true... But if you want to get technical... I have to pay higher taxes and purchase a fishing license, to pay the salary of game wardens, to partrol and protect our waters. The same can be said for just about EVERY facet of life. We are ALL paying for the sins of the minority. My home owners insurance is higher... because some people rob houses. My doctor bills are higher... because everyone wants to sue doctors for any and every conceivable reason. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

OHHHH.... Now it's THOUSANDS of Loons that are dying each year. Let's not just talk, let's see some scientific FACTS and actual DATA that will back up THAT statement? Or are you just "assuming" that this is true because you read it or heard it someplace? I've seen the data, and it's more like 1.25 Loons dying from lead poisoning each year... NATIONALLY, with NO PROOF that the lead poisoning came from fishing sinkers. Lead is one of the most abundant substances on our planet, that is one reason it is so cheap, and the poisoning could have come from several sources. The Loons eat fish, which could be contaminated just from swimming in water polluted with lead runoff from some other sourse for example.

And Marty, there is a BIG difference between your common garden variety "whale-watcher" and "lesbian-whale-watcher". I have been on a few whale watching trips myself. And not ALL tree huggers are caffee latte drinkers OR lesbian whale watchers. Nor are all caffee latte drinkers tree huggers and/or spotted owl kissers. Most spotted-owl-kissers are OK people too. It's when the tree huggers start drinkin' too much caffee lattee that the trouble starts. First thing you know they are french kissin' spotted owls and booking whale watching trips, which in itself is not too bad. BUT... When the tree huggers, who are drinkin' too much caffee latte, while kissin' spotted owls, just happen to be lesbians (not that anything is wrong with being a lesbian), start bookin' all the whale watchin' trips, THATS when you can have some real problems on your hands. The non-caffee latte drinking tree huggers and the straight whale watchers can't get a seat on the dang whale watchin' boats and the first thing you know... You have a "whale watchin'" riot on your hands. Not that ALL tree huggin', caffee latte drinkin', spotted-owl-kissin', lesbian whale watchers are bad people though. It's that "manic manority" that gives the whole bunch a bad rap. But I digress. I used THESE and the OTHER terms metaphorically (you can look up the meaning) and not literally. Like I said before... LIGHTEN UP!! God loves you... And so do I!!

ENOUGH ALREADY! Let's get back to fishin'!

__________________
Safe boatin', good fishin', keep your net wet and...

"Tight Lines"

Posted by Marty on 2002 PM:

I can't help myself, I have to make another comment. There was a blurb in today's paper about how the legislature passed the sinker ban on Tuesday.

To quote from the article: "The measure also seeks to end the hazardous practice of biting down on lead 'split-shot' weights to affix the sinker on the fishing line."

The article failed to mention that some anglers also bite down on the flanges to open up the split-shot.

On a more serious note, and I don't want to get into it here, but for those who may be interested, I did a google search on loons lead poisoning and a number of hits pop up about various agencies and the studies they have done.

Posted by ADKBass on 2002 PM:

Don't mean to get this going again.
Only thought it right to keep you informed.

05-08-02 1720EDT

NY--Pataki-Lead Sinkers

Governor signs bill phasing out use of lead fishing sinkers
By JOEL STASHENKO
Associated Press Writer

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) _ Gov. George Pataki signed a bill into law
Wednesday that will ban the sale of small lead fishing sinkers in
two years in New York state.
The governor said the bill will save the lives of waterfowl such
as ducks, geese and loons who are poisoned by lead ingested when they mistake the sinkers for grit.
``Fishing is a popular sport in all areas of New York and this
law will promote responsible fishing through the use of nontoxic
sinkers,'' Pataki said.
A chief sponsor of the sinker bill, Long Island Republican Sen.
Carl Marcellino, said lead sinkers are the chief remaining source
of lead poisoning in the environment since lead has been removed
from paint and gasoline.
In addition to saving waterfowl, Marcellino said the new law
will also protect adults and children from possible lead poisoning.
Fishermen typically squeeze the split-shot sinkers over fishing
lines with their teeth.
The ban will apply to sales of sinkers weighing a half-ounce or
less. John Sheehan of the Adirondack Council, which supported the ban, said sinkers weighing a half ounce or more are big enough that they are not mistaken for grit by waterfowl.
Sinkers are used by fishermen to keep baited fishing lines below
the surface of the water.
Sinkers made of several nontoxic substances are now available,
including steel and tin, Sheehan said.
The president of the state Conservation Council, Howard Cushing, said sportsmen and sportswomen supported the new law and worked with the state and legislators on the sinker ban bill.
The executive director of the Adirondack Council, Bernard
Melewski, said the measure will save the lives of thousands of
waterfowl by the end of this decade and have a ``permanent,
profoundly positive impact on the environment.''

__________________
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Posted by hvbassmaster on 2002 PM:

I guess it can all be atributed to "LOON"isy. The only person this seems to be hurting is the Bait shops. People h\who com and fish NY on vacation will bring there own lead stuff I will go on line and order it from BPS or Cablas and so on and so forth. Does not fix the problem. That is why the NYS Leg get paid the big bucks though to pass stupid laws and not pass the budget on time!!!

__________________
Think Spring!!!

Posted by Marty on 2002 PM:

Hv, clever word, "LOONisy."

I don't know this for a fact, but I would assume that BPS, Cabela's and other mail order outfits would be prohibited from shipping the lead products into NY.

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