Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 PM:

Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 PM:

The 'Erie Drag' presentation - is it "trolling" or not?

I know that this topic is more of a tournament-based subject, but it would be great to get more opinions from all sides of the fishing arena. Tony (Bassin Dude) and I had a very interesting discussion about this on the phone the other night, and as long as it doesn't erupt into a flamer, I thought it might be an interesting topic for all of us.

The topic is that of deciding whether the 'Erie Drag' presentation is actually trolling or not.

As most of you know, 'trolling' in the classical sense of a controlled pulling of live bait or lure through the water is not allowed by practially all bass tournament organizations (I actually don't know of any who endorse it).

A favorite method for producing Smallmouth Bass on Lake Erie and elsewhere is given the name 'Erie Drag' - where your lure, usually a heavy-weighted tube jig or grub, is literally dragged across the bottom structure, allowing any wind present to move the boat and lure along.

Some argue that the Erie Drag is actually a form of trolling, because of the unattended nature of the lure and the drift duration. Opponents say that is not the case, that the 'drift' is random, and the trolling motor is simply used for 'boat positioning' only, and not to power the bait along.

Some overseas tournament organizations have actually instituted rules calling for any cast to be completed (reeled completely in) within 50 meters of the original spot where the lure was thrown.

If the Erie Drag type presentation is banned, then tournament anglers will be forced to find new ways to coax deep water Smallies to hit, such as casting and retrieving tubes, jigging spoons and deep diving cranks. However, nothing works quite as effectively as the bottom drag.

So, my question to the board is this:

Is dragging your lure along the bottom by drift trolling to you or not? Again, please no flames. I look forward to your responses.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by bobn on 2002 PM:

in my opinion if you are not controlling the motion of your lure either by rod tip or reeling you are trolling-if the bait is being moved by motor or the wind driven motion of your boat i would have to say you are trolling--if you can put the rod down and the bait has motion by boat movement or by a motor you are trolling--bobn------ps you can't troll off a dock

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 PM:

troll
v. trolled, troll·ing, trolls

1)

a) To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat.
b) To fish in by trailing a baited line: troll the lake for bass.
c) To trail (a baited line) in fishing.

2)

Slang. To patrol (an area) in search for someone or something: “ (Criminals) troll bus stations for young runaways” (Pete Axthelm).

3)

Music.
a) To sing in succession the parts of (a round, for example).
b)To sing heartily: troll a carol.

4)

To roll or revolve.

v. intr.
To fish by trailing a line, as from a moving boat.

To wander about; ramble.
Slang. To patrol an area in search for someone or something.
Music. To sing heartily or gaily.
To roll or spin around.

n.

The act of trolling for fish.
A lure, such as a spoon or spinner, that is used for trolling.
Music. A vocal composition in successive parts; a round.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English trollen, to wander about, from Old French troller, of Germanic origin.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
troller n.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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-Ron Schara

Posted by JPBass on 2002 AM:

Hmmmm,

Interesting question. I'd say if you're not under power you're drifting not trolling. Two seperate and different techniques. But if you're useing the trolling motor for positioning then I suppose it could be considered trolling.

The next question. Is drifting accetable in tournament competetion? Or do you have to cast and retrieve your lure? A question that might have to be addressed at each individual tournament as I don't recall any rules against drifting in the tournaments that I've fished.

If you put your rod down to grab a sandwhich or something and a fish hits it, were you trolling??

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Posted by Steve_IA on 2002 AM:

My opinion is as JPBass'... and he stated it very well.

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

HAHHA, this reminds me of when the Catholic Church says that the Rhythm method isn't birth control because it isn't artificial!!!

Drifting, motoring slowly, hell, what is the difference, of course it is a form of trolling......

now, a better question would be this: Who gives a flying *&*#&! that meaning the "officials" of bass tournaments, not the poster in this thread. What is the freakin' diffo? you are fishing with a lure, not live bait, and using the environment and the bottom of the lake to catch fish......how many times, we are distracted in a boat to do something and leave a lure unattended and we get a pickup....wasn't it drifting along at that point? Who is the almighty that decided that a bass fisherman has to be manipulating his lure at all times under his own machinations?

What about deadsticking with say a senko....isn't that just another variant of live bait fishing? Of course it is......

Threads like this just reinforce more and more why I will remain an admamant proponent of recreational fishing......who should tell me how or how not I can care to catch a fish on a particular day?

this also reminds me of arguments about Govt rules and regulations, who is the Govt but us? Well, who are the bass clubs but the members who belong to them.....did you ever stop to think what might happen if every single bass club voted and then said, we allow the ERie drag or we don't fish in your tournaments or any tournaments on Erie, and so forth and etc.....

Seems like an issue that SHOULD be decided by the members. If B.A.S.S turned around tomorrow and banned senkos as unfair, what would they do if all of their member clubs broke off from the organization and formed a new one?

So my suggestion here is verify and reinforce whatever representation you have amongst Club(s) and exert your influence...

however, again, I sure am glad I don't have to go up against any of this mentality when I am fishing for fun and enjoyment...... JOHN G

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Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 AM:

Well said John G!

I should note that I don't give a flying fornical either!

(my post above may have been misleading)

As long as I ain't breaking any local, state or federal laws, I'll fish anyway I please... thank you very much.

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

Tony, YOU DA MAN BABY!!! Can't wait to meet you in person on June 19th, you are going to have a blast....your Boater, Tony, is one of the most personable, and funny guys you will ever meet, he just oozes personality and enthusiasm......he has taken over PatX 's role (Pat is working round the clock now) and is on Maho about 5 times a week and so is really up on all the changing conditions and patterns....he has a really gorgeous BassMaster Classic version Skeeter boat, as good as it gets...in addition to that you will have HugeFish ( another John G) on your boat and John is a very careful and skilled fisherman.....you have a million dollar combo for that day!! JOHN G

Posted by wnybassman on 2002 AM:

In a Bassmasters magazine several years ago, drifting was thrown into the catagorization of trolling by the author of that article.

Sure, "no trolling" is a very well known written rule in nearly all tournaments, BUT, when I ask around to different tournament directors and such, everyone seems to say "Well, that's gas motor trolling, like you do for walleye". I have always asked because when the wind dies down too much, I usually end up doing the trolling motor enhanced drift. Nobody seems to have an answer for that one, because it is not a gas motor troll.

I know alot of guys that use the wind to present their Carolina Rigs. Make a long cast, and drift along the weededges and offshore structure dragging it behind. I have even casted under a dock, and let the wind blow me away while I drag it out from under the dock. Where would it end??

So, IMHO, drifting is a form of trolling, but not a form covered under tournament rules. Also, even in BASS pro circuits, drifting is an acceptable form of fishing.

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Posted by JPBass on 2002 AM:

John G.,

A fishing tournament is a game like any other. You need a set of rules to play by. Most other species tournaments allow trolling. Most bass tourneys do not. Just the way the game is played is all.

Why can't Pro ball players use metal bats?

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Posted by Cast-a-way on 2002 AM:

Draggin' a bait is one of my favorite methods to fish. I do it w/ Carolina rigs, slider heads, football jigs and Senkos. You can cover an area without turning your trolling motor on is one of the reasons I love it. When I approach an area I want to fish and there is a breeze blowing, almost every time I'll go upwind and drift to the spot rather than use my motor to get there. Helps with those spooky fish. I've caught alot of nice fish doing it and won a few of my club tournys doing it. I won a tourny one day drifting a 150yard strech on a lake. I also used up alot of my battery running into the wind to start another drift. Is it trolling? Not in my opinion.

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Posted by Bass Rat on 2002 AM:

Drifting is not trolling.

If you go that far and disallow drifting then how can you allow dead sticking.

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Posted by BassinBilly on 2002 AM:

Sounds to me like what you do after a day of heavy drinking.......

But I do see alot people do this on the amawalk, they go from one end to other allday very slowly. Trolling sawbellies or sliver spoons just put fishing where golf is

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

JP, I know that you have to have a set of rules but what I am saying is that, you the member of the club, determines the rules....If enough guys feel that wind drifting a tube on Erie is okay, then that is what the rule should be, and if the majority don't want it , then so be it.....I would never be in a bass club where you couldn't have a voice in rules, and I wouldn't want a bass club affiliated with B.A.S.S if there wasn't recourse to rule formation and changing....I am not aware of juridiction in the NY Federation, perhaps the illustrious president of that organization can come on here and explain more about it and how it relates to this thread....... JOHN G

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

I have written to Wayne of NYBass Fed on this topic....let's see if he can find the time to comment on it..... JOHN G

Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

John G.,

You're right. It would be the right thing to do to put every decision made to a vote and have the majority rule. Unfortunatly that's not always practical in a large organization. Some things have to be left up to our elected officals. And again unfortunatly you're right, much like in many governments and religions, that doesn't always reflect the opinon of the majority.

Small clubs affliated with B.A.S.S. can change their bylaws within their own club if they see fit. If they wanna troll, then troll away!!

And Noel, I'd have to say if the wind dies out and you're draggin that tube with the trolling motor, that's trolling. The difference, in my opinon, is drifting is controlled by nature (the wind) and trolling is powered by man (the motor). But again that's a decision to be made by the powers that be. I'd be very interested to hear what Wayne has to say on the subject.

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Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 PM:

Awesome comments, everyone!

Exactly the potpourri of thoughts I was hoping for!

It reveals how much the hairs get split on issues - and also how we, as individuals, interpret them. Maybe the terminology needs to be made more clear - such as a clear definition as to what 'trolling' means in the B.A.S.S. Rules, so that the excluding (or, heaven forbid, the including) of 'wind drifting' is also made clear. This would prevent such controversy from arising.

If anyone has anymore comments, please feel free to add them.

Tight Lines...

P.S. I love the 'Erie Drag'.

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Posted by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:

I agree with Nick. Trolling is done by mechanical means. Drifting is done by wind. Dragging on a drift should not be considered trolling

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Posted by Wayne Tomassi on 2002 AM:

Not Just Erie // Jurisdiction

Thanks John on the request to check this thread, a very interesting one. One of which has been discussed quite a bit since the introduction of the Senko... By the way, with that bait, it's not just Erie, other lakes are also fished by using the dragging technique. Mahopac is one of them!!

Let me first address the question about rules and jurisdiction. The only fishing rules that must be followed by all anglers are those dictacted by our states Dept of Environmental Conservation (D.E.C.). If bass anglers don't like a rule, working with New York B.A.S.S. is the best way to get it changed. For example, the 5 bass limit rule was changed in the mid-90s to allow culling for tournaments. We are working right now to get a state-wide catch-and-immediate-release bass season from ice out to opening weekend. Form a club, help us out....

As far as tournament rules are concerned, the issue on this thread, let me explain "local rule". B.A.S.S. does not tell New York B.A.S.S. what rules we have to follow in our tournaments or how we run our tournaments. We do make our rules very similiar to B.A.S.S's for consistency purposes for those that move up to the Divisional, regionals or decided to fish the Opens to eliminate comfusion. Simiarily, New York B.A.S.S. does not tell its affilated clubs on how they should organize and run their clubs never mind their tournament rules. Each club has the ability to have their own set of rules, guidlines, for their tournaments which is usually approved by club majority. If a group in a club doesn't like the rules, they usually go off and form a club on their own. So if you want to form a sanctioned B.A.S.S. Club and affilate with NY B.A.S.S. to receive the benefits of affiliation, the please do. We are not going to tell you how to run your club, but your numbers will help us in our mission to the the focal point for all New York B.A.S.S. anglers.

On the topic of "is drifting considered trolling?" let me give you my view point. First of all, the drifting technique described is allowed in our Federation trail because it is not considered trolling. Some points to ponder....

1. Trolling is done with a gasoline engine, usually at speeds much more than that of a drift. In a drift, your boat pretty much moves at the same speed as the water on the surface. When trolling, you are moving faster, possibly even cutting through the rollers.
2. When you are trolling, you are not bottom dragging a bait. It is suspended in the water at a designated level determined by the method, the speed, the lures weight, etc. When drifting, you are dragging the bottom. Actually a better word might be "bumping" or "hopping" the bottom, which can be achieved at the slower drift rate and your controlling your rod tip.
3. Controlling your rod. In trolling, usually the rod is placed in a rod holder, with a outrigger snap, or a drag alarm to indicate a strike. Again, as #2, your lure is suspended in the water. If you put your rod down too long, or put it into a rod holder with the drifting technique, you will quickly get snagged while "bumping" or "hopping" the bottom. So in drifting, the angler must still maintain some rod control. The sandwich story is interesting, besides fish being caught, there are probably just as many snags, but we never brag about a snag.
4. "Trolling Motors" UMMMMM!!! As bass anglers we have to be careful in naming our equipment. Years ago, we bass anglers mislabeled "aquatic grass" as weeds. Now we get upset with waterfront owners who work to kill the weeds, our bass's favorite habitant. Hey, on their property they put weed killer on weeds, and fertilize their grass lawns. Too bad, we didn't call the structure, "grass" Similiarily, we miss-labeled our "Manuevering Motors" as "trolling"motors. How long would our batteries last we we really tried to "troll" like some do with their gasoline "kicker" engines.

Lastly, and possibly most importantly!!!!!

5. Trolling is not fun... During the off season, I travel through the world trying different types of fishing. I just came back from a trip to Puerto Valletra, Mexico and did quite a bit of deep sea fishing, which uses trolling as it's major technique. Boring!!!!!!!!! Yeah, its gets exciting when there is one on, but trolling for hours gets a little "ta ta". Shark fishing with rod in hand, 400-600 feet down and drifting, well that's fun. When you feel a difference, you know you have a bite and I can tell you it starts the adrenaline flowing like a Erie Lake Smallmouth pull or better yet a bass surface strike.

With that last comment, isn't having fun what fishing is all about??? I've meet quite a few people and made quite a few good friends fishing. Yeah, that's what it is all about!!!

Bass wishes,

Wayne

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Posted by JPBass on 2002 PM:

Wayne,

So what you're saying is drag away!!!

Now all I gotta do is drive 8 hours to lake Erie, buy some heavy tube jigs, find Noel's ledge, and I'm into some 6 lb. smallies!!! WOOOHOOO!!!

Thanks for the reply by the way.

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Posted by Scully on 2002 PM:

some interesting tidbits

Wayne, its nice to see you take time from a busy schedule to share with us your take on the subject. Looking through my back issues of Bass Masters, (articles) "The ABC's of Jiggin" I came across a quote by Bobby Garland regarding the technique he used in placing third in a Bassmaster Invitational on Toledo Bend in the late 80s.
"The bass were suspended 2 to 3 feet off the bottom and were almost impossible to catch. I tried everything in my book of tricks with no results, then like a light bulb going off in my head, the answer was right there in front of me. I held the jig vertically, letting it sit motionless about a foot off the bottom. I used the trolling motor to move the boat slightly in one direction, away from the structure. The secret was not to move the bait, but to move the boat."

This was a B.A.S.S. event and evidently, the Tournament Committee had no problem with this type of presentation. Some I know would consider this trolling, others would not. The unfortunate part about tournament fishing and organizations are that there are no "sameness" in the rules. A friend I know who works with ESPN says that is the one reason few outside of the fishing fraternity take bass fishing seriously as a competitive sport.

Baseball, football, and all other major sports have rules that govern their play from little league on up. Golf and Tennis have common rules as well. Of course each stadium has "ground rules", but for the most part, all the general rules are the same regardless of the level of play or local. In bass fishing, they change club to club, state to state, organization to organization.

Sure there are DEC, DEP and other various agencys to deal with, but when you get right down to it, it would not be overly difficult for B.A.S.S to formulate rules that all affiliated organizations had to abide by.

Another friend on the inside with B.A.S.S. claims that it would not be difficult and indeed the very possibility has been discussed at the "Top Level". The reason why they dont is quite simple...."if it aint broke dont fix it."

Scully

Posted by Rob J in WNY on 2002 PM:

I'd like to thank John G for inviting Wayne Tomassi to give his comments. And thanks to Wayne for coming through.

This is EXACTLY how a great discussion can be had on controversial subject matter. We have seen a broad range of opinions without harsh words and expressions.

It's obvious that, just as we fuss over our own fishing, some fuss over rules. It's understandable. I, IMHO, do not see the 'Erie Drag' as a trolling maneuver in what might be called the 'classical' sense of how trolling is normally observed in fishing - that is the virtually unattended rod and line, driven along by the boat's motor in a deliberate fashion, as commonly employed by deepwater walleye and salmonid anglers.

Certainly, bass can be caught (and often are in Lake Erie and Ontario - and elsewhere in many waters around the country), by such methods, and I would tend to believe that this particular method of angling is what B.A.S.S. has sought to prohibit. There's no doubt that it can be an effective method of fishing for bass.

Hopefully there will be some near-future clarity on this matter with regard to those who are making the fuss over how 'trolling' can be interpreted.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

Thanks for your comments Wayne, pretty much goes along with everything I have always been told. From now on, I have an "electric motor" though. LOL

Hey, we'll see you at Chautauqua in less than a month!!!

Posted by bobn on 2002 PM:

wayne--thanks for the input--thanks for stopping by--now that your here why don't you stay? your experience would be a great asset to the board--at first i disagreed but you almost have me convinced about the difference between drifting and trolling--almost----lol--thanks again ----bobn------wnybassman--it's an electric maneuvering motor!--(let's stay politically correct)

Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

Bob, to be perfectly politically correct, I believe the correct term for bait maneuvering with an electric motor is called "Strolling". I read that some years ago.

Posted by Wayne Tomassi on 2002 PM:

Greater than 5lb Average Smallmouth Tournament

By the way, just to show how good the "Erie Drag" is right now, take a look at our Federation's General Message Board. Don highlights that at last weekend's "Make-A-Wish" Tournament with 89 boats, that they weighed in "150 bass weighing in at 5+ pounds, 18 over 6lbs and yes even 3 weighing in at over 7+ pounds. "

Check it out at www.nybassfed.com

CYA!!!!!!!!

Wayne

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Posted by bobn on 2002 PM:

wnybm---years ago we used to dance to something called the stroll----i don't recall a 12 v battery or an electric motor--just an upright joy stick!!-bobn

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 PM:

Ok, I gave this careful thought all day and night. I examined the issue from all perspectives. I weighed the pluses and minuses and I've come up with the DEFINITIVE ANSWER to the question:

Is dragging a bait such as in the "Erie Drag" considered trolling?

DEFINITIVE ANSWER...

If Rob J catches more fish then me and he was using the "Erie Drag" well, then yes it's illegal and he should be JAILED.

Otherwise....

It's ok!

Posted by Sea Jack on 2002 PM:

AMEN Tony!

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Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

Wayne has spent endless years in tireless efforts to promote Bass Fishing in NYState.......everyone should visity their site regularly to keep abreast......just can't thank you enough for coming in on this topic, what a great well thought out and written post by you Wayne!!! Many many thanks.......and I agree with RobJ, this is a winner of a thread, and everyone has outdid themselves in the manner of input and responses..... JOHN G

Posted by lastcastme on 2002 PM:

I know I don't have much input on these matters,but I love learning from seasoned fishermen like yourselfs.Thank-You
Thats what NYBASS is all about!!!!
------<*(((((><
Good-Fishing

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Posted by FISHIN' GYPSY on 2002 AM:

John... Buddy... Calm down!
You could bust a gusset... and we all know how big your gusset is!

Fishing a Senko is like fishing LIVE BAIT?? I knew those things had a life of their own... but LIFE???

Worse things could happen...
You could be trolling along, minding your own business, and suddenly be struck in the head by a lead impregnate DUCK!

My advice to ALL... If you don't like tournament rules... DON'T fish tournaments!

As to the question...

Yes... In the purest sence of the word... YOU ARE TROLLING under any condition where the lure is being dragged by the boat.

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