Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

Revisited: Very important reading material

Sorry for bringing this back up on the board but for any of you that subscribe to the Mid-Atlantic edition of Fishing & Hunting News check out the article that is on page 36, March 28 - April 11 issue, writen by Marc Marcantonio titled "To Fish Or Not To Fish", it is a very good article on the ethics of bed fishing.

OK...Ok for the shouldn'ts and the shoulds both views are represented here and the question is asked "Should we fish for spawning bass?" Now Mr. Marcantoniohas a BS in ecology and a minor in fisheries biology from the University of Delaware where bass fishing is open year round.

He state to many people try to place human traits on and use human terms on bass and says we are doing the animal world a grave diservice. Emotions play an integral part in our thought processand when we apply human traits to wildlife we make poor management decisions that affect the balance in nature.

He goes on to state that nature will find its own way to balance things out in favor of the bass whether we fish for bedding bass or not. He states even the spawning season in the Northeast is spread out in such a way that even the nest predators like sunfish, perch and crappie could not desimate the population as the spawn is spread out over a longer period of time than most think. There is always a "peak" time but he state that the best producer of genetically healthy fry is prior to the peak period and he states most of us would never see these fish spawn and he says these are the genes nature wants in the system, during the peak these eggs and fry have the weaker genes and most will provide food for the system. Also the post peak period may produce better than the peak time due to most of the nest predators are also spawning themselves.

He says that for himself he does not bed fish as he sees it as being to easy but that he is not against it but does not condone the use of it during weigh in tournaments were the fish will be placed in a live well and then hauled off to another part of the lake to be weighed, for those who catch and eat or for small lakes and ponds as it could in the long run have adverse affects.

So here is an article that is pro-bed fishing and we have read much to the con side of the argument and we know places like Candlewood in CT where fishing for bedding bass has had little to no affect on the population and has maybe made the fishing even better.

So should we fish for spawning bass here in NY if it were made legal to do so? Maybe it would be within the fisheries best interest, so who do we believe? Maybe NY needs to revaluate this archaic law and start studying the fisheries again.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 PM:

Scott , there will be a lot of people who will say, oh no, not this topic again, but I think that the author of your article has made some seriously valid points.....thanks for the update...... JOHN G

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 AM:

John,

I am going to try to scan the article and pass it along to a few people to read including you, of course!

It is a quite interesting and well written article that I thought was quite relevent to the discussion that took place a week or so ago.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 AM:

I would love to see a copy of that article. If anyone could find the time to scan it and send it to me I would appreciate it greatly. My email is bassindude@adelphia.net .

Thanks

__________________
Tony

"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to be fishing."

-Ron Schara

Posted by Steve_IA on 2002 AM:

Sometimes we go to great lengths to justify what our hearts tell us is wrong. At sometime in man's history (probably around the time he learned how to "control" fire) he began to have more control over nature than nature had over him. The wisdom to use man's abilities to their fullest has always resided in his soul, not his brain. Steve_IA

Posted by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:

Interesting.

I believe I read that article elsewhere, maybe it was published in several publications.

I disagree that bed fishing has ever made a fishery better but I do concur wholeheartedly about the spawn being spread out. I also believe that the initial article which I posted to start this debate also suggested that the biggest fish spawn before what most of us would refer to as the peak and that in all likelihood those fry had the greatest chance of survival.

Because we now have a catch and release season in many areas and because many anglers ignore the closure on others, the early spawning bass are just as vulnerable as those that spawn during the peak spawn, maybe even more so.

In most of the lakes that I frequently fish I've seen this to be true. The real slob bass, particularly the smallmouth, are always on the beds before "the peak" of the spawn. When the season starts there are generally still lots of fish on beds but by and large these are smaller fish.

My personal experience has basically been in line with what these two most recent articles have suggested. I'm steadfast in my belief that bed fishing in northern waters CAN'T be good and is likely bad over the long haul but I recognize the possibility that I may not be right (slim possibility but I was wrong once before ). I also agree with Marcantonio that bed fishing and especially pre-spawn fishing is generally far easier than post-spawn fishing. I'm not saying that I blame anyone for wanting to stretch a line, that's just human nature.

I believe that this is one of the reasons that you see so many guys out there pounding pre-spawn and spawning bass. The bass are in shallow and are generally easy to find and for the most part are quite aggressive and easy to catch. In my humble opinion it really shouldn't be a feather in anyone's cap because they caught 40 or 50 bass during the prespawn period.

I've enjoyed this discussion and I'm glad that it has been far more civil than at times in the past. I think that everybody's trying to show restraint because we all recognize that this is a topic which greatly impacts our fishing. One thing that I'm not too sure I understand is why many of you guys still refer to the closure as an archaic law. While I respect your right to disagree with me or with the law, you must admit that maybe, just MAYBE, the law does have some scientific justification.

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

Bill, you remind me of a funny story my father used to tell me, where the soldiers were marching in a parade down the avenue and Johnny's mother was looking out of her apt window and says, "oh look, everyone is out of step but my Johnny!" LOL......now, Ny is "out of step" with all the other states, can it be that we are on the right track and EVERYONE else is wrong, or can it be that maybe just maybe they ARE archaic laws? something to muse and mull over.....by the way, the author, Marc Marcantonis, is a fantastic guy and fisherman from out in Washington state, another of my Internet pals that I have written extensively back and forth to and spoken over the phone and would love to meet some day...... JOHN G

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

I have writtten Marc and asked him to come on here and talk about the article in this thread, here is hoping that my busy friend can squeeze it into his schedule,,,,,besides being a father of two, Marc competes big time at high level BASS meets and is also another Yammie rep along with other sponsorships....... JOHN G

Posted by Ken L on 2002 AM:

When this kind of subject comes up there are so many variables that any conclusion has to be tentative. I think that after so many years of fishing for so many different species in so many different places the one lesson I have learned is to stay away from pressured lakes. My gut tells me that this may be irrelavant to fishing for bedding bass but it may not be.
If I am the only fisherman in a 2000 acre lake how much damage can I do? On the other hand how many of you have seen Lake Hopatcong on a Saturday morning? in the Summer
My.02.

__________________
Ken Lyons

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 AM:

Steve,

This is very true and I agree but again who decides what is wrong and right in nature, a Dr. of fisheries biology or nature itself.

How many times in the history of humans have we justified our actions for war, pollution and even in our own personal lives, we do it every day, justification is what we call right or wrong and calling something right or wrong is usually just a personal opinion.

Isn't NY's closed bass season a way for the state to justify that it is protecting the fishery and then contradicting itself by allowing an early season on Lake Erie and othere places where non-native nest raiding species can be found and they spawn well after the bass, but yet targeting bedding bass is allowed. I guess some fisheries biologist has justified his opinion and decision there hasn't he, even though the balance in nature has changed.

Here is another example of justification, cormorants have over populated the great lakes region and have caused much destruction but yet they are allowed to thrive with very little being done to control it, why? Because the Fedral Gov. says they are endangered, again the balance of nature has changed and some wild life bioligist had to justify this as being the correct action to take.

I will send you this article once it is scanned, until then read back through the post, is this guy actually justifying it even though he does not practice it or is he giving some factual evidence that contradicts what others have said. Again justification of ones actions is just an opinion usually fueled by emotion.

Does man actually control nature, drought, hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tidal waves, disease, famine, birth, life, death or is it we would like to think we do. When man tries to control nature man looses, you would think in a million years or so we may have learned that man is just part of nature usually its most destructive force because of our intelligence and emotions.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:

Yes, Johnny is the one that is in step.

Good one John. For what it's worth, NY is not the only state or province that has a closure in the spring of the year, I believe that they are quite common in northern states and all of the Canadian provinces. I'd be thrilled if Mark came on to give us his views. There are alot of variables.

Scott, a couple of points. First of all, keep in mind that fisheries biologists don't make the laws or the regulations. More frequently than you or I would like to admit these things are done for social or, worse yet, political reasons. I have talked to quite a few fisheries biologists, including a few region fisheries chiefs from NY state and I have yet to talk to one that claims that fishing over bedding bass doesn't do some harm. In addition, all of the spring trophy and catch and release seasons are NOT universally accepted by those biologists. That's not to say that some biologists might not think that it's OK but let's not paint all biologists with a broad brush or suggest that there is widespread hypocrisy out there (if there is it would be of a political nature).

I have no doubt that many of us on this board, both the pro and con sides of this issue, have some book learning and some personal "justifications" about bed fishing. The point is that I'd much rather let the professionals tell me what's right, what we can do without hurting the fishery and what may have negative impacts in the long run and trust their professional opinions. I don't tell John how to pull teeth and he has yet to tell me how to do my job yet we all think that we know what's best for our fish and game and that the biologists are all idiots.

Lastly, in regards to the cormorant issue let me make one small correction. No one in the federal government is suggesting that cormorants are endangered but they are federally protected. In my humble opinion, this IS one archaic law. In their defense, the feds recognize the need to deal with cormorants and some other predatory birds and they are beginning to do what needs to be done to address the issue. I can see the wisdom in not letting any redneck with a gun take the issue into his own hands.

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 AM:

Bill beat me to it...

I saw some members here post that NY State was the only state with a closed season. I suspected that this was not true and did a little quick research on the subject.

Beside New York, Michigan and Minnesota have a blackbass closed season in spring. Southern Wisconsin has a two month closure for all gamefish whereas the rest of Wisconsin is catch and release.

I read in "In-Fisherman" that 4 of 8 Canadian Provinces have closed seasons but beyond Ontario, I don't know which provinces are closed.

I emailed Ralph Manns, a noted fisheries scientist and frequent contributor to many "In Fisherman" publications, asking him his views and findings on the subject. I've exchanged emails with Mr. Manns recently and he is very forthcoming. Hopefully he will share his insights on this subject.

Posted by Drew on 2002 AM:

bed fishing

Bill:

I haven't been here much lately so forgive me if this subject has been covered.

Do you believe that heavy bed fishing MAY have a potentially beneficial effect on lakes that have a large population of stunted bass and an inadequate forage base. On one of my favorite lakes, you will find scores of 10" smallies and slightly larger largemouth in the shallows guarding nests. While I typically pass on these nests and try to target deeper water bass or late season trout, one could certainly make an argument that placing MORE pressure on the undersized spawners would be a step in the right direction.

Maybe this extreme example points out that cookie cutter management has its limitations. Maybe not, but I'd like to hear your thoughts, nonetheless. Tight lines.

__________________
Drew

Posted by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:

Drew, You got me there.

Touche. I agree with you that "cookie cutter" management is generally lacking but is often used to make regulations simple for the average angler to understand. I hear anglers and hunters complain all the time about regulations that are too confusing because each area and/or lake has seperate regulations. What they fail to realize is that this often creates opportunities for sportsmen rather than taking them away.

Your scenario certainly seems to have merit. Not being a fisheries biologist, I can't say with any certainty what would happen on Lake X if you encouraged bed fishing but logic would dictate that it MAY disrupt the spawn enough to basically destroy a year class or two. This would in turn lower the number of adult bass and hypothetically provide more food for those remaining fish thereby increasing their growth rates and potential.

The problem with that scenario is that although it's quite common on smaller bodies of water, I suspect that it's almost non-existant in the larger bodies of water that I fish. I'm not certain that I can think of any situation on a public body of water larger than a couple hundred acres where your scenario exists.

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

Bill,

As I agree the fisheries biologist do not make the laws but 9 out of 10 times their recomendations are what is put into the laws that govern our waters.

The NY laws governing our waters have been in effect since the mid 1960s, so much more has been learned about the spawning habits of the black bass since that time, did NY have all the answers back then where most other states did not? Does NY still have all the answers whereas the rest of the mid Antlantic and New England states do not? Doubtfull on both questions.

That is correct as Tony pointed out NY is not the only state with a closed season for black bass, a few have similiar seasons but take a closer look there is much more fisheries management going on. Both Minnesota and Wisconsin are big on slot limits, weeding out possibly 3 smaller weaker fish for the larger and only allowing 1 trophy fish to be kept and on these waters it is against the law to C&R as this is also the case on many Canadian trophy lakes also.

Then you have states like CT. that take a "Hands Off" approach to fisheries management, allowing nature to manage itself by managing them very little, Candlewood produces large smallmouths very well, on Lake Mamanasco John G and I caught nearly 100 bass and that was a bad day there in John's words. Lake mamanasco also produces small bass, few over 1 to 1.5 pounds, but it also is a small lake with fewer people keeping or bed fishing.

Now lets take a look at NJ, right now NJ has had a real "Hands On" approach as they are rebuilding much of their fisheries, on many of NJ's waters they are stocking higher predatory fish so that in the future the fishery will manage itself efficiently. NJ has added pike, walleye and muskies to many of its waters for two reasons, one to control the nest predators as well as keep the bass and trout populations in check, the other reason is that it has proven to produce trophy fish on the first experimental lakes they stocked. NJ's bass season is also open year round but you cannot kill or put bass in a livewell until after the spawn. Just look at their record fish that have been caught as most are recent or within the last 20 years since the stocking began, not 50 or more, so it is paying off.

Has anyone here in NY seen a fisheries biologist out in the field working? When was the last time a study was actually done on NY waters other than the Great Lakes, St. Lawrence, the Finger Lakes or Champlain? Maybe NY needs to put some fisheries biologist to work on some new studies as I see NY falling behind as many other states have more modern management plans or do we wait until our fisheries need to be rebuilt much like NJ did and is still doing.

So yes, compared to many of the states that surround us they are archaic.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 PM:

Personally, I cannot call New York State Fisheries Laws archaic.

I've fished in New York for over 30 years and, on the whole I find the quantity and size of Bass improving year after year. I also see improvements in Northern Pike and Musky fishing too. I bet I've fished every brook, stream, pond, lake and reservoir from the western Finger Lakes to the PA state line. I see general improvement everywhere I've fished. It is my opinion that the law - as broad and general as it may be, is working on the whole.

The real question and the original question is whether or not bed fishing is detrimental to a given fishery. Let's be realistic here and I know that what I state is true... get ready, quote me:

Bed fishing may be detrimental to a specific body of water in a specific year but just as easily not be detrimental to another body of water a few miles away. This can change from year to year - from body of water to body of water.

Obviously New York State doesn't have the money or manpower to manage each body of water individually. Hence, we have broad laws. I suggest a modest increase in licensing fees with the increase going directly into fisheries management.

With that said though, I would go so far to state that BASS fishing in New York State may be at or near an all time high for both numbers and size of fish in the majority of the state's fisheries. The bigger problem with New York State fisheries is the decrease in Walleye and Yellow Perch in many natural lakes. Also, I'm sure many of the offshore anglers can describe problems with their fisheries. It is my opinion that any increase in DEC funding should go toward improving habitats for those fishes before any more money is spent on Black Bass.

Also, just for the record, I've seen fisheries biologists three times. Two years ago, they were doing electro-shock studies on Chautauqua Lake. Last year they were there again interviewing anglers at the ramp. They asked us where we fished, what we caught, what we kept and released. How we caught them. General description and size of the fish etc. Also, last spring, they were at Big Six Mile Creek Marina (Niagara River) doing a electro-shock study. My son and I talked to them extensively then too.

Posted by GANGGREEN on 2002 PM:

PA also has a closure.

I believe that a year or two ago they started to allow C&R fishing for bass in the spring. Since I don't fish for bass much after the traditional April 15th closure I haven't really payed much attention to that.

Scott, some good points. I too agree that "micro-managing" may be our best case scenario but I've seen it lots of times before. Anglers and hunters get upset when there are different rules for each area and they begin to complain. At that point the DEC (or whatever the governing body is in the particular state) "dumb down" the rules and begin to paint with a broad brush because that is what sportsmen have asked for. You could actually say that the experimental C&R season on the Finger Lakes was rather controversial and the DEC should be congratulated for being flexible. For what it's worth I know for a fact that many fisheries biologists were opposed to this season but it flew anyway.

For the record, I too have seen biologists on the water many times. Sometimes I just lucked into them and they've always been willing to explain to me what they're doing and why. I've also helped the DEC's biologists on a few occasions when they needed an extra set of hands. By and large these guys are on top of things, well-meaning and hard working. Maybe it's not true downstate but if you're fortunate to be near Oneida, Chautauqua, the Finger Lakes or Erie/Ontario I believe that these guys are very "hands on". I occasionally call one of two biologists that I know from region 8 and they can answer any question that I have about any waterway in their region. It's clear that they are familiar with the waters.

I have to agree with Tony. Be careful what you ask for, you might get it. In my opinion NY state does one heck of a job managing her waters. This is not to say they don't make mistakes (if Tony on Ice is lurking he has plenty of constructive criticisms) but you guys have a great thing going. Tony would also agree with that statement.

He can tell you for himself but I know that he just came back from Minnesota's Lake of the Woods and has fished many other places and he constantly says that there is NOWHERE in the world that has better mixed bag fishing than central NY state. Some of that may be just luck but not all of it.

I also agree with that sentiment. I live in PA where a really good day on most waters would be 15 bass and one or two bass days are frequently the norm. I'm talking pre-spawn, mid-fall, that would be the best that you could hope for. This is why so many district tournaments from PA are held in NY. In central NY where I fish 10-15 bass a day would be a disappointment during most times of year and 50, 60 or more a day are nothing to write home about.

Guys, we've got it made here. I'm fortunate because unlike a lot of you guys I actually enjoy fishing for panfish, trout, walleye, etc.. I suppose that if I only fished for bass I'd be looking for different options too.

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Bassin Dude
Personally, I cannot call New York State Fisheries Laws archaic.

The real question and the original question is whether or not bed fishing is detrimental to a given fishery. Let's be realistic here and I know that what I state is true... get ready, quote me:

More than ready to Tony

quote:

Bed fishing may be detrimental to a specific body of water in a specific year but just as easily not be detrimental to another body of water a few miles away. This can change from year to year - from body of water to body of water.

True and I agree whole heartedly but the problem with the law the way it is most bodies of water are already supporting bed fishing, large and small lakes alike. I am sure you have seen it there on your lakes in the north as well.

quote:

The bigger problem with New York State fisheries is the decrease in Walleye and Yellow Perch in many natural lakes. Also, I'm sure many of the offshore anglers can describe problems with their fisheries. It is my opinion that any increase in DEC funding should go toward improving habitats for those fishes before any more money is spent on Black Bass.

Why is there a decrease in walleye and yellow perch? Is there a problem possibly in the balance of the population of black bass to walleye and perch, does there seem to be an over abundent amount of small bass, limiting the food supply possibly for the walleye and perch or with the over abundance of bass, maybe the bass are using the walleye and perch as a food supply, causing this decrease. If this is the case I again agree, because by improving their habitat you also improve the bass fishing in the long run, balancing the population between predator and prey makes for a better fishery for all species.

quote:

Also, just for the record, I've seen fisheries biologists three times. Two years ago, they were doing electro-shock studies on Chautauqua Lake. Last year they were there again interviewing anglers at the ramp. They asked us where we fished, what we caught, what we kept and released. How we caught them. General description and size of the fish etc. Also, last spring, they were at Big Six Mile Creek Marina (Niagara River) doing a electro-shock study. My son and I talked to them extensively then too.

Here on our downstate waters I have never seen electro-shocking being done or have talked to a fisheries biologist and I have fished these waters most of my life, the closest I have seen to a fisheries biologist or a study done in this area was a survey card and a box put up to put them in after I was done fishing, most times there are no cards there and nothing in the box.

Maybe the NYC Watershed gets more attention from fisheries biologist? John G., Bobn, Jeff L., Vic, Pete or John K may be able to shed some light on those waters.

The last time a study was done that I know of in this area, it was done on Greenwood Lake, it was done to see if the lake could still support lake trout, Greenwood is a boarder water with NJ, take a guess which state did the study? And if you say NY it doesn't count.

NJ decided against trout as the oxygen levels in the depths of the lake would not support them, NJ decided to stock muskies instead, NJ asked NY to split the cost of the stocking, NY decided to stock trout anyway about 10,000 along with 5000 hybrid muskies, whereas NJ called in Muskies Inc. and had them evaluate and stock the lake with true muskies, about 18,000 plus NJ has added walleye also to Greenwood.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 PM:

Scott,

The Walleye and Yellow Perch numbers are declining because of feral species introduced in the waterways - I actually have read the scientific studies. In lakes Erie and Ontario as well as some of the Finger Lakes, Alewives are competing directly with Yellow Perch fry for feeding habitat. Also, the zebra muscle has affected Erie such that it is having an adverse effect on the food chain relationship causing declining Walleye numbers.

You mentioned management techniques in other states including slot limits and the introduction of a superior predator species. I can state from personal knowledge that the following waterways in New York State have, within the past three years stocked, in order to improve the overall fishery; Musky, Tiger Musky, Northern Pike or all three:

Chautauqua Lake
Cassidaga Lakes
Bear Lake
Conesus Lake
Keuka Lake
Lime Lake
Canandaigua Lake

Cassidaga Lake has a Black Bass slot limit

I'm sure many other lakes are stocked with a superior predator species and/or have slot limits. The ones I listed above are merely the one's that I'm sure of from personal experience.

Scott, with all due respect you seem to have an excellent knowledge of fishery management from other states but you don't seem to realize what is going on right here in New York State. I suggest that you contact your local DEC office and see what they're doing in your region. You may be surprised. I contacted region 9 numerous times asking them questions about my local waters. That is how I learned what is going on around here. They always answered my questions and even sent me some maps for some of the smaller waters that I frequent.

The original thread was about bed fishing and I offered my opinion on this. You seem intent on condemning New York State fishery management as a whole and I just disagree with you. Can it use some tweaking? Sure! But I'm not prepared to accept your stance on this subject.

Posted by wnybassman on 2002 PM:

First, I want to build on what Bill and Tony have said. My dad has fished 4 BASS Top 150's as an amateur, and has fished with 12 different pros in doing so. He said every one of them absolutely LOVES to come to NY to fish the large tournaments here. They said the fishery here is like no other, and the fishing is relatively easy at times, as compared to the rest of the country. I think that says alot for what our management has done over the years. We must be doing something right!!!

Just because other states have evolved into different types of management, doesn't mean ours is archaic. Yes, micro management would be the best becasue every lake has different characteristics, but let's be realistic, that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Like Bill said, it would just get too confusing for the average "joe" anyway.

I think we as bass fishermen can get a little (OK ALOT) selfish when it comes to our fishing. I think we want to "have it all" at times, and go out fishing whenever we want to, not when the officials tell us we can. Why is it that we don't have problems with hunting laws? Maybe I want to go out deer hunting in the spring just after the fawns are born. The state gives us a certain period of time to hunt, just as they give us a period of time to fish. To tell you the truth, I actually look forward to the off-season every year, and in some years, opening day comes a little too fast because I ain't ready for it.

__________________
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"Perhaps God gave the answers, to those with nothing to say" - Savatage

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 PM:

Very Well Said Noel!

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

Re: PA also has a closure.

quote:

Originally posted by GANGGREEN
I believe that a year or two ago they started to allow C&R fishing for bass in the spring. Since I don't fish for bass much after the traditional April 15th closure I haven't really payed much attention to that.

Scott, some good points. I too agree that "micro-managing" may be our best case scenario but I've seen it lots of times before. Anglers and hunters get upset when there are different rules for each area and they begin to complain. At that point the DEC (or whatever the governing body is in the particular state) "dumb down" the rules and begin to paint with a broad brush because that is what sportsmen have asked for. You could actually say that the experimental C&R season on the Finger Lakes was rather controversial and the DEC should be congratulated for being flexible. For what it's worth I know for a fact that many fisheries biologists were opposed to this season but it flew anyway.

Guys, we've got it made here. I'm fortunate because unlike a lot of you guys I actually enjoy fishing for panfish, trout, walleye, etc.. I suppose that if I only fished for bass I'd be looking for different options too.

Bill,

Hunting from region to region in NY the laws can be very different, the guys upstate start hunting with a rifle big game 2 weeks before we do, county to county it is different, Westchester Co. is I think is bow only for big game, Rockland Co. - shotgun only, Orange Co. you can use a rifle, even within the region I hunt there are different DEC regs for how many doe permits are issued to different areas of the region. Whos responsibility is it to know and follow those regulations? Of course the hunter.

Here is a question for you, do you get a doe permit? I will explain the relevance later and you already most likely get the idea where I going to go with it.

I too enjoy fishing for different species, but with few options other than panfish, bass or pickerel in my home waters in this part of the state I either have to travel north 3 to 4 hours or go to NJ which is only 20 miles southwest of me, or travel 20 miles north to fish an open NY bass water.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:

No doe tag in NY state.

About the only hunting that I do in NY is for turkeys. I do hunt doe in PA though.

On a slightly different topic to Tony. I agree that invasive, non-native species are definitely having an impact on native species in many waters but it's not all bad news. I think that the verdict is still out on the zebes but in Lake Erie the white fly (mayflies) are back and a lot of green weeds are starting to grow again because of the increased light penetration in the lake. I believe that the yellow perch may already be seeing the benefit of that. Fisheries management is a very cloudy science. It often takes years to see the impact of a management decision and even then you can't please everyone.

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 AM:

Agreed Bill,

I've read where the improvement of the Smallmouth fishery of Erie is directly attributable to the cleaner, clearer water which of course was at least partly achieved because of the Zebra Muscle.

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

Guys,

One reason you guys are happy with your waters and many here downstate may not could have a lot to do with the almighty $$$$,
sorry if this may sound like a sour grapes answer but thinking about it the last few days it makes sense.

Why would NY not put money into the downstate waters like they do the upstate waters?

One good answer - Tourism, in the downstate region our biggest freshwater fishing tourist attraction is Roscoe NY aka Troutown USA, we have fewer fishing guides and most that do come to this area to fish other than for trout are daytrippers, they come for a day catch a few fish and go home.

If you look at the 2001 stocking charts by county, you could use it to draw a line from Albany to Binghamton as to how well the waters are stocked the further north you go. 2001 DEC Fish Stocking

Now in my county only two lakes were stocked with fish other than trout, Greenwood Lake got more hybrid muskies and Stillwell Lake got walleye, unforunately Stillwell is off limits to most civillians as it is one of West Point USMA's lakes.

Tony, I have called the local DEC office for my region and all I got is how well our trout stocking mangement is and that every year they have increased numbers of trout stocked, when asked about the lakes I fish in the local state park and if any studies were being done there, I was told to talk to the state park as this was up to them to do. After talking to the state parks people I was told to refer to the DEC as it was their job, so I am left with no answers and many questions.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
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Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by Kurt on 2002 PM:

Somehow I can't manage to keep myself from commenting on this, no matter how I'd like to stay out of it. There seems to be a lot of talk about whether or not there is a negative impact on a population from bed fishing. Ganggreen's recent thread focused on the impact of reduced fry production, and there was discussion that reduced fry numbers don't translate into fewer bass. I have yet to see anybody say anything about the impact on those individual adult fish that are caught and released.

Last May I did some fishing on the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania, toward the end of the spawning season (it was somewhat early last year due to a warmer than average spring). Fishing for bass is legal down there at that time. One thing that I noticed when I got out of my boat to do some wading was that there were several dead smallmouth in the emergent weedbeds the line the islands and banks in this area. These fish were presumably males (11-14" long), though some could have been females. The more I looked, the more dead bass I found. I saw a few dozen in a few hundred yards of shoreline.

What exactly killed these fish I do not know, but obviously there was some considerable stress on the population, particularly fish of this size. I would estimate that there were hundreds of dead fish within the few miles of river that I fished, though you don't see them unless you get up into the shallow weedbeds. These fish had just gone through the spawning season, which is by far the most stressful period for them. Add intensive fishing pressure during that period, and you have a recipe for high mortality to adult fish.

Fortunately, the Susquehanna River in central PA is one of the most productive smallmouth fisheries anywhere. This population can obviously withstand some condisiderable losses to its population without a resultant decline in the overall population. However, to say that fishing during the spawn does not have an impact on individual adult fish is ignoring the truth. People that fish for bass during the spawn should face up to the fact that it quite liklely results in delayed mortality of some fish, not to mention loss of fry. I admit that I likely contribute to some mortality when I fish down in PA during the spawning season. I am doing it within the law, and the fishery seems to be able to handle it. But my actions probably do kill some fish indirectly. I think other that fish during the spawn need to stop kidding themselves and at realize the consequences of their actions. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying take responsibilty for your actions.

And I would just add that people who complain about the job our fisheries managers do should do something about by supporting initiatives to get some money for studies to be done. States like Missouri that have some of the most progressive fisheries management and research programs actually have a small (1/8 cent) potrion of their state sales tax that is earmarked specifically for fish and wildfife management and research. I would like to see how some of the critics would do if suddenly they had to manage many different species for many different interest groups in many different waters with pocket change to work with. Considering what kind of financial support the DEC gets for many of its programs, I would say we have some damn good fishing in this state. The people who post about their catches on this board are proof of that.

Kurt

Posted by Marc on 2002 AM:

Wow, I'm humbled...

Well, Dr. John finally figured out a way to get me to post on his website! I had promised myself to spend less time on the keyboard since I have a bad habit of making the internet rounds instead of getting much needed sleep, but figured if you guys could invest this much discussion from reading my article, I could at least say hello, and thanks for reading.

I don't claim to have the answers to age-old questions, but I have learned many of life's lessons from various mentors over the years, and I hope that others may some day benefit from my own experiences.

I will try to visit here as time permits during this thread, but between working fulltime as a fisheries biologist and several other ventures, my time is somewhat limited. I recently entered the market as a manufacturer of a new line of dropshot weights, called "QuickDrops", and they seem to selling faster than even I anticipated. So my wife and I are busy trying to keep that business going on top of everything else, including various writing deadlines.

I have scanned the above posts, and I am very impressed with the thought processes displayed here, and the civil manner in which people conduct themselves. I am sure that I will learn a lot if I spend any time at all visiting with you.

ciao,
Marc Marcantonio

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ciao, Marc

Posted by JOHN G on 2002 AM:

Marc, I am so honored to have you post here.....NyBass is a great group of guys, quite different from the old nasty bickering that used to predominate the old Bronzeback board, I came in here and "cleaned it up", much like Wyatt Earpp! LOL.....now we have the greatest group of guys you could imagine, and the number of get togethers between members is soaring constantly, actually it has become more like a non competing bass club than an internet board... Anyway, drop in from time to time, by having a separate Tackles and tactics section, anybody regardless of what state they are in can climb aboard and get in the discusssions......Please feel free to post on Tackles for Sale board about your new dropshot product and how people can acquire it, also while you are on that board, you could also list info about the fine underwater camera that your wife sells, which from all accounts is way better than the standard Aqua cam.......thanks a ton buddy! JOHN G

Posted by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:

Hi Marc.

Thanks for visiting and we all hope that you occasionally hang around. I'm sure that you're aware of the quality of fishing that we have here.

Scott, I'm not sure what kind of money that the DEC spends by region but you may have a valid point. My suspicion, though it is nothing more than that, is that PERHAPS the chemisty and/or size of the lakes has something to do with it. I know from personal experience what potential lakes like Oneida, Cayuga, Keuka and Chautauqua have and I believe that a great deal of it may have to do with the lakes' chemistry. I have NO experience with your lakes and maybe they have as much potential as the upstate lakes. If so, then you have a valid gripe. If, on the otherhand, the lakes don't have the same kind of upside potential then you can't blame the DEC for focusing on other areas. I think Kurt hit the nail on the head. The DEC is already spread pretty thin financially. Some more money would do wonders.

Kurt, I briefly touched on the adult mortality issue in one of these threads. It clearly does occur. I think that we'd be kidding ourselves if we didn't acknowledge that even the pure C&R guys among us kill some fish. Good points.

Posted by Bassin Dude on 2002 AM:

Hi Marc, Welcome aboard!

Scott E.,

In New York State, what region do you normally fish in and what bodies of water do you frequent? I want to make a few phone calls myself. After-all, my tax dollars are involved here too. I find it appalling and totally unacceptable that you can't get a straight answer from the DEC.

Posted by Scott E. on 2002 PM:

Tony & Bill,

Orange County is region 3 the phone number for the fisheries is: (845) 256-3161, I am sure you will learn a lot about the trout waters in our area.

__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net