Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 PM:
Here I go again....
Throwing
gas on a fire.
And I'm going to keep on doing it as long as I see a point to it.
For those of you who are not North American Fishing Club members
there is an outstanding article in this month's Fisherman about how
fishing pressure affects bedding bass. The article is written by Dr. Hal
Schramm and is a must read in my opinion.
I'll try to hit the main points of the article.
* Even catch and immediate release can have negative effects on smallmouth
nesting success as has been proven in many studies.
* not much evidence one way or the other had been
collected on impacts on largemouth until a recent
The Illinois study showed that:
* After being fought and held out of the water for a short time (30 seconds)
largemouth immediately went to deep water and didn't return to their beds for
up to 3 minutes.
* Even after returning to their beds the largemouth were
sluggish for up to 24 hours which obviously had an impact on their ability (or
desire) to defend the nest.
* Bass which weren't guarding beds showed none of this sluggishness so
apparently spawning requires great fuel reserves for the males that are
guarding nests.
* Dozens of predators swarmed the nests within a minute or two of the male
being yanked off of it. Obviously this was when the male was either still in
the boat or in deeper water after his release.
* Canadian researchers recently demonstrated that almost 75% of smallmouth
nests suffered predation when the male was absent for 5 minutes.
* In areas with late spawns and short growing seasons (ie.
* This article wasn't suggesting fishing pressure had an adverse impact on the
adult bass population, only on survival of the young eggs and fry.
I know that we all tire of these annual arguments about fishing over spawning
bass but here is some empirical evidence (not just some mad man's opinion which
is what I usually post) that suggests that bed fishing does have an adverse
impact on bass populations in northern states.
Please don't be selfish this year. Lay off the bedding bass. Sure, in some
waters there may be some bass that are caught off beds by anglers unwittingly
and that is almost unavoidable but to intentionally sight fish for bedding bass
is inexcusable. If the bass in your local lake are spawning, either
fish deeper for pre/post spawn fish, target another species or go
somewhere else where the bass are not on the beds. This is just common sense
and good stewardship.
Hopefully this won't turn into a battle like it has in years past. I'd love for
John to be able to leave this post up and allow some rational discussion about
the topic.
Posted
by Sea Jack on 2002 PM:
Ganggreen,
This is JR and I do argee that the predation
increases when fish are off the bed and that the guarding males are negatively
affected by being caught, but I think another interesting study would be to see
if the survival rate of bass fry increases wen less
fry are present.
If the survival rate increases, the population of bass will not be affected. If
not, there will be a huge difference seen. This is a study that I would like to
see the results of.
As for now, I would be very skeptical of targetting
spawning males.
John
Posted
by Rob J in WNY on 2002 PM:
Very good post, Bill! Thanks for posting it.
I have never believed that shooting for bedding bass could not impact the
overall population, even though at least one publication claims otherwise. No
way. Sure, in other states where bass are super-pleniful,
overpopulated, or other species of fish are more revered (ie.
crappie, walleye or bream), the luxury of fishing beds
might be beneficial.
Not here in
quote:
Originally
posted by GANGGREEN:
* This article wasn't suggesting fishing pressure
had an adverse impact on the adult bass population, only on survival of the
young eggs and fry.
And eventually, the population of adult bass can be affected as potentially
smaller year classes of fish reach adulthood, especially in the presence of top
predator species such as Northern Pike and Pickerel. I'm not sure we need to
conduct a study of that one, as we have already been shown that there are
enough reasons to turn away from catching nesting bass.
I like the fact that the sources cited are more-or-less northern in latitude,
which helps it to corroborate with the scenario here in
It's not only a choice. It's a responsibility.
Tight Lines...
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Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 PM:
Hi JR..
My personal opinion is
that the survival rate isn't very likely to go up when fry numbers go down but
that's just my personal opinion. Many species in nature generally have a
certain number of young 'uns that are likely to
survive and hunting/fishing/predation sometimes have little or no impact on
that. A case in point would be the American woodcock. Studies have shown that
even though woodcock numbers are steadily decreasing across the continent that
hunting mortality plays absolutely no role in this. In other words, even in the
absence of hunting, woodcock numbers would be the same. I think that I've read
the same type of thing with bass, that regardless of what type of loss they
suffer to fishing and/or predation, only X number of bass will survive. The
factor that seems to play a huge role in all of this is weather and water
conditions. Obviously in a very cold year or a drought year the number of fry
that survive might drop below X but that's not really a factor of nest
predation at all.
What we really need on the board here is a fisheries biologist that has some
background in the black bass because what little knowledge I have on the
subject comes from old studies or my personal experiences which obviously don't
count for much in this discussion.
Posted
by wnybassman on 2002 PM:
I have never been in
favor of the "early season" on the
Too many guys will (and have) taken advantage of the easy fishing during this
time of year, and it HAS to have an affect over the coarse
of time.
I prefished the Seneca Federation Tx
last year through May and early June, mainly because I have never been on that
lake before, and had a major Tx
coming up. I know I caught lots of spawning bass during that time, and wasn't
real proud of it.
I will get out on Conesus and Honeoye early this year, but will stick to the
deep water bass. Why will I go out during the early season? because
I can. If it went back to the old season, I would be happy with that to.
One has to look at
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Posted
by JOHN G on 2002 PM:
Bill, you have a valid
article there and it is not a rant and rave, so I feel it is important to leave
the post up.....it is not argumentive, it is just
supplying research supporting one side of the issue......go ahead, throw fat in
the fire, rock the boat you trouble making up-stater
you! LOL! JOHN G
Posted
by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:
Nature has a way of
thinning out the spawn so that only a few strong brood
will survive from each nest. Bass lay a ton of eggs and often in more than one
nest. It is survival of the fittest but take into consideration the sheer
number of offspring produced. Only a few are meant to survive. Bill the first
point has to do with Lactic acid build up in fish. Of course, the longer an
angler fights a bass the more lactic acid build up and the more harm that can
be done. Attribute stress to the death of fish. I was reading on another site
how some people were complaining that UL fishing was unethical because some
people may play fish to the point of exhaution thus cauing the fish to never recover. While I agree that palying a fish too long is bad, I surely disagree with the
unethical comment. After all, I could list a ton of factors as to why bass
don't make it. I'm sure pollution kills far more fish than UL fishing. How
about a guy who swings a bass over the side of the boat and whacks it on the gunnel??? Or a guy who has a limit of
bass in his livewell for an entire day???
These surely happen more frequently. What those anglers on that site neglected
to realize that anytime you fight a fish and take it out of its environment
...for however long.....you create stress which is a negative factor to that
fish' wellbeing. I am positive the results would be similiar for largemouth bass as well. I don't put too much
stock in the Ill study. I've seen bass immediately return to their nest and
immediately get recaught. I think that the biological
clock in the bass dictates its actions at this period and influences it. Just my observations and opinions.
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Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:
Earthy, I don't think that .....
the
I too have seen bass immediately return to beds BUT I have also seen bass dash
off and stay off the bed for several minutes as was reported in this study. It
is for this reason that I (and anyone in my boat) refrain from sight fishing
for bedding bass.
My personal opinion is that bed fishing is unlikely to ever "destroy bass
fishing as we know it" but it most certainly doesn't help, especially in
northern waters. I believe that those anglers who argue that bed fishing causes
no harm probably know in their hearts and minds that it does yet they refuse to
admit it. Just my humble opinion.
Posted
by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:
I agree with you about
bed fishing. I don't do it intentionally but there are states that have an open
season that coincides with it. I was on
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Posted
by judge66 on 2002 PM:
While I am not a
fisheries biologist, I do hold a biology and limnology degree and have done
fish studies. The key here is first if you do target bedding bass do not use an
ultra-light set-up god catch and release fishing depends on a quick fight and a
quicker release. Use 20-30# test and barbless hooks,
less energy the bass uses fighting the more it will have to protect the nest
and quicker it will return to the nest.
I read that study and find many problems with it and do not agree with his
findings. He spectulates on fry and egg survial but does not follow the egg or fry to adulthood.
The amount of predation is going to depend on the other types of fish in the
water, when the bass spawns, and the type of bed. Anytime a bass leaves a nest
some egg or fry may be prey upon; this happen when they chase nature prediators away (sunfish, perch, catfish).
I do lake management for a living and I did a 5 year study where we did a
population count of largemouth bass, then lowered the water level in a
reservoir and lost 1/2 the total nests 2 years in a row (year 2 and 3) the
total number of bass increased from around 18, 000 in year 1 of the study to
over 20,000 in year 5 of the study. It has been 3 years since and I will argue
that even with 2 bad droughts in the past few yeasr
the bass population is still at or close to 12,000 This study was done in
northern NJ, and if losing 1/2 the nest did not have a negative impact on the
fish, fishing the beds in spring will have no impact.
But even that being said I do not claim that this is the case in every lake all
over the country. The reservoir see limited pressure, lack prediators
larger then bass (no pike or muskie, no hybred strippers) there are large carp and cats. But in
this lake and many others in the
I have yet to see a good study or paper on the effects of fishing beds and the
effect on bass populations.
Even my own study had holes due to finical and time limits
I figure to each their own as long as you do it with the least amount of stress
as possible which should be done with all catch and release fishing
get them in and on their way as fast as possible, sorry if I offend but all of
you that fish on ultra-light tackle are crule and
inhumane you put so much stress on the fish that many of them die
Posted
by dennis on 2002 PM:
I'm not going to pretend
to be at the knowledge level of you guys, but I have had the discussion with my
teenage son that just maybe, people, with our weapons, tools and skills, are
part of the natural order too. Bed fishing is all too easy and as a
I'm not for the collection of spawning bass in the least, but I think that we
are not doing the damage once feared.
I do believe that there are conditions that make one body of water more likely
to be devestaded by this, but don't you think the
population would have been destroyed by now?
Just my humble opinion,
Dennis
Posted
by Jameson on 2002 PM:
Someone told me that LMB
smells like "mud" when you cook it.
I have never, and probably will never keep a LMB. Barring it is not a potential
world record 
Have any of you eaten them?
And isn't it illegal to fish during the spawn in NY?
JC
Posted
by OnceBitten on 2002 PM:
Jameson,
I've eaten largemouth before, it's not as good as smallmouth, and can't even
compare to perch or walleye, but if cooked up well, it's pretty good.
In
Regards,
Fred
Posted
by JOHN G on 2002 PM:
Remarkably, this thread
has gone on so far without any of the usual heated arguments that follow it, a
miracle at best, but not one to push it to the limit, I am electing to close
the thread....not delete it , just close it....may not
be a popular decision, but again, I want it to quit while it is
ahead......however, in typical Tyrant fashion, I will get the last word! LOL!
to Bill, your concern is out of sincerity, but you yourself admitted that the
article and the results are not a final word and are simply data supporting
what you believe in.
to Judge: thank you for the info on the drawdown
studies that you did, very interesting, your input on the board will be greatly
beneficial considering your background. However, you cannot convince me that
setting a hook with 30 pound test line and hauling in a fish immediately is not
much more traumatic than a guy that plays out a fish on 6 pound test and lips
it in the water and immediatly releases it....
Dennis , as the point you made about Candalwood, yes,
on some lakes it may not affect the fishery hardly at all, Im
sure that there are some waters where it certainly can,especially
smaller waters, however, it would be hard to make a general rule of thumb for
such an issue.....
Jameson, fishing beds is NOT illegal in Ny State, as
many times in normal winters, fish may be bedding very late in upstate NY, and
the bass season opens the 3rd Sat in June, and if bass are on the beds there, technically , they are fair game....what is illegal in most
waters in NY is targeting and/or keeping bass before the opening season,
regardless of the spawn status.....
Good post, but let's move on here on Places to Fish and go back to talking
about the various Places to fish! thanks......JOHN G