Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2003 PM:
Bass
angling poll.
Just got my new copy of
In-Fisherman and there is an outstanding article called The Science of Smallmouths (isn't the word smallmouth already plural?).
Anyway, without getting into the annual debate about the merits of bed fishing,
one of the major points of the article is that bed fishing for smallies can be
VERY injurious to the population. Something that the author mentions and has
been mentioned on this board a hundred times is the fact that bass season
frequently comes in when male bass are still on the beds.
That being the case, would you as a bass angler be willing to have a bass
season that started two weeks later if, in exchange, you were allowed to fish
until say April 15th? I'm not looking for any arguments about whether pre-spawn
or bed fishing are OK, I'm just curious if YOU would support a later opening
day for bass and if you would like to fish the early spring period.
For what it's worth, I've also read lots of studies that indicate that fishing
for smallies during the cool/cold water periods can be very dangerous as well.
I'm simply throwing something out here because I'm curious.
Posted
by OnceBitten on 2003 PM:
Sure, I'd support it.
But I'd even go a step
further and support a closed season from November 1st, (or pick any date in mid
to late fall) through the end of the spawn.
I'd also like to see a northern zone and southern zone whose fishing offseason better protects the spawning fish in that
particular part of the state. In a sense, they do it for hunting, why not
fishing?
Would this help the fishery? Maybe, maybe not.
Would it hurt? I can't see how. Why not hedge our bets.
Give the fish some time off to warm up, make babies and put some weight on.
My 2 cents.
Fred
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 PM:
Re: Bass angling poll.
quote:
Originally
posted by GANGGREEN
...That being the case, would you as a bass angler be willing to have a bass
season that started two weeks later if, in exchange, you were allowed to fish
until say April 15th? ...
Ummm....
No.
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by wnybassman on 2003 PM:
Hell, let's just close
bass season for about 12 months out of the year. I don't imagine sticking a
sharp metal object into a fish during any season is all that great. Even
immediate catch and release will probably kill more fish than we will ever
realize!
I do think that we should protect the spawn, and offer no season what so ever
during this time. This has to be the most vulnerable time to the bass.
__________________
Bassman's
Thread of the Web - A Look at WNY's Bass
Fishing
-
Protection and organization of your rods
"Perhaps God gave the answers, to those with nothing to say" -
Savatage
Posted
by Marty on 2003 PM:
Re: Bass angling poll.
quote:
Originally
posted by GANGGREEN
That being the case, would you as a bass angler be willing to have a bass
season that started two weeks later if, in exchange, you were allowed to fish
until say April 15th?
No, I wouldn't either. Speaking strictly from my own experience of shore
fishing for largemouth, the fishing always stops at my pond by October, so the
extended season wouldn't do me any good. I can't stand waiting for the 3rd
Saturday in June, and giving up two more weeks of primo fishing time is
unthinkable.
Posted
by ttony_5 on 2003 PM:
OK, here we go again.
With NY being one of the few states with an actual closed bass season, it's
amazing that we haven't been reading about the tremendously depleted bass
populations of states like NJ and CT. Similar climates but apparently no
negative impact from an open season.
I'm not able to change the rules but let's see some more historical data before
we start talking about the dangers of early or late bass fishing.
__________________
Tony Fiorino
Proud Chairman of Team Skeeter - Somers Chapter (a
fictional organization, please stop sending in applications)
Posted
by Gregg on 2003 PM:
No answers just more
questions
quote:
I've also
read lots of studies that indicate that fishing for smallies during the
cool/cold water periods can be very dangerous as well."
But bass season also inclueds largemouth bass, does
this apply to largemouth? There are more lakes by me that don't have smallmouth
then do!
quote:
I'd also
like to see a northern zone and southern zone whose fishing offseason
better protects the spawning fish in that particular part of the state.
This makes sense to me (Thats why it probably won't happen 
)
Even if you close the season to protect wintering bass (Nov 30 ) would it be
harmful to reopen it from ice out (mid March) to about mid May?
Then close it down again till mid June?
I really don't see why this part of the year needs to be closed, their not
spawning or wintering. I'm I missing something?
__________________
Gregg
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2003 AM:
Actually there are
numerous northern states with closed seasons on bass. Off the top of my head
I'd guess that more states have some sort of closure than the ones with open
seasons 365 days.
Gregg, I don't really know the biology of closing the season in the winter/spring.
My personal vote would be something like yours. Close the season during the
"wintertime" and reopen it for early spring. This is basically how PA
has done it for years.
I think that the bottom line is that the states should allow as much angling
opportunity as is possible without hurting the fishery. The In-Fish article
seems to point at harvest (or occasionally relocating, as is the case in
tournament fishing) as the bad guy during cool weather and the few guys who I
know that take advantage of the cold water fishing wouldn't think of removing a
bass.
The bottom line is, the more we know, the more we know we don't know. Thanks
for sharing your thoughts guys.
Posted
by smallmouth sean on 2003
AM:
Don't have to worry about
the spawn in this part of the country.I would have to
say that 80-90% of the fish are done before June 1st rolls around. The season
comes in the third week in June, that gives about a
three week cushion. If you ask me I think the season should be started a week
earlier than it does now! my opinion.
Posted
by Woody on 2003 AM:
How did I know........
That You
would respond to the article after yesterday's response to In-Fisherman!!!!
The article in question SHOULD BE READ by anyone attempting to answer this
poll.
(I would have suggested reading the article
)
Gord is a friend of Dick's and with references to Dr
Ridgeway this is a excellent read for those into
Smallmouth Biology.
Regards,
Woody
Posted
by Scott E. on 2003 AM:
quote:
Gregg,
I don't really know the biology of closing the season in the winter/spring. My
personal vote would be something like yours. Close the season during the
"wintertime" and reopen it for early spring. This is basically how PA
has done it for years.
Bill,
How long ago was this and when was the current seasons
in PA adopted? As far as closing the season for winter that is fine with me, on
the ice I would rather be catching perch or crappie.
I talked with a guide some time ago about Lake Erie's spring season, he was
against it because the Bass clubs would have their tourneys, catch bass in
deeper colder water, transport these bass into warmer waters to be weighed and
released causing them to become stressed and many to die.
Let's put it this way, no matter what way the season is, whether it be open all
year round, closed for a few weeks during the spawn or leaving the season just
the way it is, everyone will have some reason or excuse to be against it, some
valid some not so valid.
As far as NY's fisheries bioligist go it is like
going to a doctor and he gives you a not so good opinion of your condition, so
you go to another doctor and he tells you that you are fine I would hope you
would look for a third opinion!!!
In high school sociology I learned what ethnocentrism means, it is ones or a
groups belief that its culture or ethnic group is the best among the other
cultures. I have heard or have seen written by many here that fishing in NY is the
best anywhere, I do sort of agree but I wonder if this is a little ethnocentric
thinking showing through as I have also heard this from people in other states
that say their fisheries are the best in the nation. All I am trying to say
here is lets stop BSing ourselves and do what is
honestly best, and as far as I can see not one person here knows exactly what
that is, including myself or do we have an expert fisheries bioligist
in the house.
PA's Bass season
Bass-Lakes
Largemouth, Smallmouth and Spotted
Jan. 1 through April 11 and Nov. 1 through Dec. 31
15 inches
4 (combined species)
April 12 through June 13
NO HARVEST - Catch and immediate release only (no tournaments permitted)
June 14 through Oct. 31
12 inches
6 (combined species)
Bass-Rivers and Streams
Largemouth, Smallmouth and Spotted
Jan. 1 through April 11 and Oct. 1 through Dec. 31
15 inches
4 (combined species)
April 12 through June 13
NO HARVEST - Catch and immediate release only (no tournaments permitted)
June 14 through Sept. 30
12 inches
6 (combined species)
__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the
devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net
Posted
by Paul Mattie on 2003 AM:
Any fresh studies cited? Or more guesswork on the part of the crew at IF (and the gang of
ghost writers.)
Any lakes with deficent recrutiment
should have the season restricted during the spawn, others should be let alone
as is, and yet others should be open to fishing even longer than present regs allow.
If you guys will actually go out during April, May, and June
will see at least 3 major and 3 minor spawning periods. This is mother
natures defense against the the TOTAL loss of one
year's spawn. It really takes only a relatively few fish to make it to have a successsful spawn.
Posted
by Charlie on 2003 AM:
In
Personally I think ALL fish deserve a "break" from the enormous
pressure placed on them by the ever growing number of anglers.
While we all have perhaps "selfish" reasons for wanting to fish, we,
as responsible individuals who promote catch and release should ease off a
little and let nature takes its course.
How would you like being dragged out of bed at a crucial moment in your procreational cycle? 
Not
perhaps the best analysis but I think you get the idea!
Tight Lines!
Charlie
__________________
Naturalized American (yeah baby)Tournament Angler,
Journalist and New York State Guide # 2803
"Come with me and I will make you Fishers of Men"
Posted
by Woody on 2003 AM:
Paul
Read the article...What
you said above has been discussed.
I found it very "Enlightening".
I find that Ridgeway's studies are fascinating...(I
was privy to some of his research work.)
Bring me up to speed on anyone else who is doing "notable" research
on Smallmouth.
I think IF has some of the best info out there on bassfishing...The
books are superb.
I also stated in an earlier thread that IF has become WAY to
commercialized...The info between the ads is always welcome.
I am assuming you have not read the article...If I may...You might find it
interesting.
Hope all is well,
Woody
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2003 AM:
Paul, Yeah, Ridgeway's
studies were cited but I think that these studies are not "new"
material. Even so, the article has to be read.
Scott, unless I'm mistaken the PA seasons aren't that radically different than
they used to be. I haven't fished for bass in the spring in PA in many years
but I think that the only really new part of the PA regs.
are that now you may specifically fish C&R during
the closure and this used to be a big no-no. They've also fiddled with the Big
Bass lakes and the river regs a bit.
As far as NY guys thinking that they've got the world by the tail, you may be
right but I think that there are enough regulars on this board that fish all
over that we can rule that out.
Lots of good discussion and no, none of us have all the answers.
Posted
by Woody on 2003 PM:
I have to agree with
my friend Gangreen
"the
article has to be read."
This article is a MUST read for any responsible environmentally conscious
SMALLMOUTH angler.
There....I said it
Woody
Posted
by Scott E. on 2003 PM:
More
Smallmouth bass spawning studies
The Life And Times Of Smallmouths
Don't mind the picture of the largemouth in this article:
Smallmouth Bass Biology
Scroll down to Habitats - "B" Spawning and Hatching
Spawning benches???
Smallmouth Spawning Benches
Reel-Deal
Fishing Guides Smallmouth Article
Rideau News Clippings
More to come on this subject!!!
__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the
devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net
Posted
by JPBass on 2003 PM:
quote:
Originally
posted by Paul Mattie
Any lakes with deficent recrutiment
should have the season restricted during the spawn, others should be let alone
as is, and yet others should be open to fishing even longer than present regs allow.
I like your thoughts here Paul. Individual waters need to be addressed as such.
Although different regulations for each lake could get
confusing.
__________________
http://www.renegadebassmasters.com
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 PM:
Thanks for the links
Scott...
Very interesting!
Overall, very nice, civil thread.
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by Seth V on 2003 AM:
Nope, I could not support
that....
I won't support any kind of closed season ever. Period.
Seth V
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 AM:
Rationale please Seth?
Could you expand please
on the thinking behind your statement?
Thanks.
dick.
Posted
by Bass Rat on 2003 PM:
I would not support such
an extentsion of the closed season.
I feel there are enough states that have no closed season and still produce a
good fish resource.
__________________
bass,bass,baby!
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 AM:
Bass Rat.
All bodies of water in
all geographys cannot be managed in the same manner.
Species, latitude, size of water,fertility
of water, the presence of tourney activity, etc. etc. etc. ALL require
consideration.
As one goes farther north more individual management techniques are needed.
Many of the larger, more resilient lakes across the middle US survive a lot of
abuse but are shadows of what they could be with better management.
dick.
Posted
by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:
Mr Jig, Then how do you explain the
good fishery in CT?
__________________
bass,bass,baby!
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 AM:
CT
2
factors here.
CT waters are among the resilent mid atlantic /southern new england waters to which i refer.
These are much more tolerant of poor management than northern
Candelwood will survive pressure that would quickly
ruin less fertile northern lakes.
Factor 2. Good is a relative term is it not?
Your idea of "good" might not be mine.
Best.
dick.
Posted
by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:
Re: CT
quote:
Originally
posted by mr jig
Good is a relative term is it not?
Your idea of "good" might not be mine.
Best.
dick.
agreed
__________________
bass,bass,baby!
Posted
by Scully on 2003 PM:
a question......
I usto care A LOT about this subject. However, I grew tiered of tilting
at windmills.
A question. Which 4 pound smallmouth has the better
chance of survival.
1. One thats caught in 59
degree water temperature off a spawning bed in May using light tackle. The fish
is immediately released.
OR
2. One thats caught
in 79 degree water in 8 feet of water in July using light tackle. The fish is
immediately released.
Answer after the end of the quiz.
PS Woodsman....for every study like that one, I can quote from ones that
disagree totally. The problem, and Dick (Mr,Jig) is quite correct, ALL fisheries are not the
same. Unfortunately, one set of regulations for all waters is much easier for
the environmental agencies to implimint than a
"bunch" of specialized regulations designed by area to fit a criteria.
Scully
Posted
by bass 64 on 2003 PM:
Scully, I'd like to hear
the answer to that one. I don't want to say either one for fear of wrongness.
The only thing going on in my head is:
1. Has the smallie already spawned?
2. And even if he has spawned, the time it took you to fight him, wouldn't
predators have eaten at least some of the unprotected fry?
I also agree with both of you Scully and Mr. Jig, fisheries are not the same
and it is way easier to make a one set of regulations for most waters than it
is for each one. It brings me back to when I take my yearly trip to
__________________
When in doubt,
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:
Re: a question......
quote:
Originally posted by Scully
I usto care A LOT about this subject. However, I grew tiered of tilting
at windmills.
A question. Which 4 pound smallmouth has the better
chance of survival.
1. One thats caught in 59
degree water temperature off a spawning bed in May using light tackle. The fish
is immediately released.
The
Also, I should mention that studies have shown that only about 30% of mature
Lake Erie Smallmouth spawn in any given season. So
with that said, you tell me which is does more damage to the Lake Erie
smallmouth bass FISHERY - pulling that smallie off
his bed or catching a single fish in July?
Also, I don't give a rats ass what's going on in
Optimum management really has to be on a lake to lake basis. Making blanket
rules and regulations for both species of bass in a state the size of
Geez, too bad there wasn't an independent
organization in
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by Woody on 2003 AM:
Mr Heron
I was in NO WAY trying to
start a fishing off the bed debate. I have read plenty
on the subject. (Actually somewhat of a new passion.....Have ALOT to
read.....Love Tony Beans simplistic approach to tackle)
I was just trying to get some folks to READ before responding ...that's all
(Educated Consumer theory....As Sy Says )
I think the article is well written and anything on Bass Biology peaks my
interest.
I still think Smallmouth folks should read the article....as well as ANY
Articles they can get there hands on.
I agree....all fisheries are different and the ones that are in
trouble.....NEED OUR HELP
Sign me up
Woody
Posted
by Paul at home on 2003 AM:
There are many more
factors than recruitment rate that contribute to the state of the fishery. The
sole focus on reproduction is misguided.
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 AM:
Tony
and Woody.
Well said guys.
Management of less fertile waters needs to be individualized. Simple as that.
Our fish and game management people are challenged not so much by resource
problems as by the attitudes (and ignorance) of the recreational public.
As Woody said articles like Gord's can only help.
dick.
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:
Paul,
I don't disagree with what you state but please don't take my remarks out of
context.
My response was to illustrate that when comparing two specific factors 1.) Catching a fish in July and 2.) Catching a fish off a bed...
That in a lake that I frequently fish, that pulling the fish off the bed is
most detrimental to the fishery when compared to catching the fish in July.
Nobody should read anything more into or assume anything about my statements...
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:
Scully, please DON'T take
what I'm about to say as a challenge to you. Just "knowing" you from
New York Bass I can truly say that I respect you not only as an angler but as a
person as well. My following statement is offered to the general populace of
New York Bass.
When I post about technical bass fishing themes... such as whether or not NY
should have an open bass season... I try to quote from actual scientific studies...
not necessarily because I believe that they're the final word on the subject
but to offer a different perspective that the average poster, in my opinion,
doesn't offer.
Now, with that said, many times when I do this, I get another poster proclaim
something to the effect... "Tony, I could talk about numerous studies that
I've read that mention exactly the opposite...".
Well, my query to all is... Show me the studies that suggest a totally open
bass season doesn't have an adverse effect on a northern middle to late stage oligotrophic bass fishery....
OK, admit it, you ain't gonna
find a true scientific study like that... how many of you guys even know what a
middle to late stage oligotrophic bass fishery is?
How about this; Show me a scientific study that shows that a totally open
season doesn't have an adverse effect on a northern water bass fishery...
If you do find one, let me know... I certainly want to read it. I believe that
they're likely dozens of waters up north that can sustain it's
bass population to fishing all year. Unfortunately, currently, I don't know of
any nor have any near me that I know of. I would like to read about those
waters that can and do.
Also, many of you guys mention
My post may come across as "nasty" and John may delete it but I don't
mean to demean anyone or their opinions. There's a lot of rhetoric on both
sides of the issue and I don't want to spew rhetoric. I stick to my statement
that each individual water should be manged separately. I know that a totally open season would
ruin many of the waters that I frequent and I will be a very vocal opponent to
a totally open season.
Again, I stress, each individual fishery needs individual regulation.
Unfortunately, this likely isn't possible with
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by Paul at home on 2003 AM:
quote:
that
pulling the fish off the bed is most detrimental to the fishery when compared
to catching the fish in July.
Where is the study to back this statement up?
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:
Paul,
I mentioned in my post that the study was done by the
You seem to imply that I made it up but part of the study is summarized in the
July 2001 issue of Bass Times.
If you are specifically asking me what scientific study I can produce that will
support the snippet of quote you pulled from me:
"...that pulling the fish off the bed is most detrimental to the fishery
when compared to catching the fish in July."
I think it's obvious that you're posting that to start a fight with me. Fight
with someone else because I'm not lowering myself to that.
I mentioned that I respect everyone and their opinions... I appreciate those
that respect me too.
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 AM:
Paul.
Have you as yet had the
opportunity to read the Smallmouth Science article that launched this
discussion?
Dr. Ridgeways work directly addresses the effect of
removing a bedding fish as it is a fish selected by nature the prior year and
will not be replaced in this spawn if it abandons the nest or looses the bulk
of the fry during it's absence.
Now if we address removing a fish entirely ...during the summer period (whether
harvest or unintended mortality by tourney or recreational angling) We are removing a fish which HAS spawned or was not selected
as the best fish to spawn.
a smaller loss it seems to me. and
to Dr Ridgeway.
Now perhaps you were just factiously jabbing Tony about
"studies"?????
dick.
Posted
by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:
quote:
Also,
many of you guys mention
Now I can only answer for myself (guess that's redundant,but you know what I mean).
My answer is because it is not as far comming from
And in addition, I still fish plenty of times in Ct even after the NY season
opens.
Nick
__________________
bass,bass,baby!
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:
Nick,
It actually was silly for me to even mention
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by Scully on 2003 AM:
a glass half full, or perhaps half
empty
bassndude.
Not to sound critical or to be suggestive....just some thoughts.
Whatever survey the
During the many years I have fished the waters of Erie, Ontario, St Lawrence et.al I can attest to having caught thousands of smallmouth
off beds, only to watch them go IMMEDIATELY back on to the bed. On one occasion
I caught the same 3 pound fish off a bed 4 times during a two hour period. Each
time I released her, she went right back on the nest.
On another occasion while fishing in Catteragus
Creek, I caught a smallmouth off a bed that had a 6 inch piece of an arrow (as
in bow and ARROW) a few inches up from the base of its tail. I removed the
arrow and the smallmouth went right back on the bed.
A survey/study (The New York State Bass Study) completed by Cornell University
in 1988 stated that while smallmouth bass were a more "fragile"
species during the spawn, if just TWO fry from each spawning pair survived, a
lake or river would soon become overpopulated. The study went on to state that
they felt a single fry from 1/2 (HALF!!!!!) the nesting pairs was all that was
needed to maintain a proper balance.
As I mentioed somewhere above......there are MANY
surveys and MANY different findings. Kind of something for everyone depending
on which side of issue your on. As far as the
Quiz....I was talking about the difference in catching smallmouth out of
different water TEMPERATURES not depths. The ONLY time
The answer is the fish caught in 59 degree water temps off a spawning bed.
Oh, I almost forgot. In 1996 the New Hampshire DNR (Correct me if I am wrong
John or bink) did a catch and release survey that
claimed smallmouth caught off nests and then released 1/4 mile away returned to
the very same nest 75% of the time. The survey went on to state that some that
were relocated a few miles away, found a male partner and spawned in that
location.
Tony... Here is that study you wanted...I still believe that study (New York
State Bass Study) is still available if you contact the DEC. The one draw back
to the study, is that while the study was funded by
the NYDEC, its findings were largely ignored. In the study, it was reccomended that there be no
closed bass season in
Another study worth reading is "Practical Fisheries Mangement"
written by Bruce Shupp and Steve Gloss (1980) as well
as "A Systems Approach to the Estimation of Fish Yield and
Recruitment" (A Paper) written by R.A Ryder......great stuff
Scully
Posted
by Scully on 2003 AM:
and I said I no longer cared....
Dick
Isnt Ridgeways theory kind
of the "chicken or the egg" theory in reverse? IF, as many sceientists
now believe, aquatic species, ie. fish,
originated from a combination of molecules (small particles of matter) than Ridgeways theory is flawed.
I saw this on NOVA's "Blue Planet". Whos says TV isnt informative....lol
Ray
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 AM:
Same
Principle?
Theole.
As you are coming into your river fishing period i'm
largely out of mine....
Your river fishing will be favorably influenced if you develop your Brewer
skills but River fishing is DOMINATED by CURRENT including speed volume breaks
seams etc. The fish are agressive by necessity and
not selective.The challenge is in dealing with water
levels, volume, discoloration etc.
Clearly you must master current FIRST and presentation techniques must conform
to that current.
The nuances of the Brewer technique were developed for lakes and revolve first
around structure (sm) 2 nd
around cover (lm) water column and retrieve type and speed, which are strongly
influenced by seasonl patterns and weather
influences.
Lake sm are ideal subjects for the Brewer philosophy
because Brewer exploits
structure and appeals almost all the time... even to neutral or negative fish
which they are most of the time!
Best.
dick.
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 AM:
Ray you old fox....
Your "half full-
half empty post" opens several subjects well worth developing.
Please remind me to address them, as despite the accuracy of the material you
quote, you could (inadvertently?) lead those desiring to believe in their
preferred direction to draw unwarranted support.
Seriously, please remind me to come back to your post when i
have more time.
Thanks
dick.
Posted
by JOHN G on 2003 AM:
Tony, no one is picking a
fight with you, and I have given you full latitude in this thread.....
Thank you Scul for coming on and adding all of the
information that you did here....
it seems we have a stalemate in that both sides do not accept the validity of
the other sides source material...
HOWEVER, since both sides DO have source material to back up what they say, it
shows you that they are not just talking out of the top of their heads....it
also serves to underscore why people will NEVER agree totally on this
issue......
I also believe in the water by water necessity but as has been deduced here,
that is not economically feasible for the forces governing them....
JOHN G
__________________
"and a new Commandment I shall give you.....that you shall love one
another"
---------------------------------
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> Forum Moderator aka:
Head Honcho
---------------------------------
Quote: "coming
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Posted
by dodgeguy on 2003 PM:
i believe in an open season for a
few reasons.people who are going to harvest fish
during the spawn will do it weather it is legal to fish during the spawn or not.people who do not believe in bed fishing will not do it
during the spawn weather it is legal or not.the few
who do catch and release bed fish i don't feel will
have any effect.most of us are catch and release anyway.fishing in april has no
effect on the spawn,so why are the months of december through the middle of may closed at all?this is senseless.if you fish
for pickeral in may you will catch bass also so what
sense does it make to close the season?if you fish
for pickeral during the bass spawn you will also
catch bass,so what sense does that make?
__________________
chrysler master technician
and avid fisherman
Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 PM:
Scully,
Thank you for a well thought out and versed synopsis which supports a total
open angling bass season in NY State. I was hoping someone would post something
with relevant data.
I never read the New Hampshire DNR report but it does seem to be 180 degrees
contrary to Dr. Ridgeway's lifetime of study. I would like to read it someday.
A couple points about the Cornell University New York Black Bass Study...
Part of the reason the study was "dismissed" as you mentioned is
because of conflicting and what some people at the NY DEC suggested was biased
opinions incorporated into the data and study. I personally have no proof of
the biased opinions and won't comment on it here. Furthermore, the study was
done on a limited number of bodies of water throughout the state and was
largely inconclusive on many of those waters - the report can be interpreted
many different ways - similar to the way that those who are reading this thread
interpret what we are saying. Some read it and see open season as the answer...
others do not despite the one line recommendation in the report- apparently
those in power at the DEC are in the latter group.
The numbers quoted from the study about one fish surviving from 1/2 the nests
being enough to sustain a Smallmouth Bass fishery is skewed because it was
under the assumption that nearly 100% of the mature smallmouth population spawn
in a season when in fact recent data suggests that only about 30% mature fish
spawn in a given season. It also didn't take into account that fish die during
their life for other reasons like disease, harvest and predation by superior
predators. The numbers were derived from mathematical calculations from
statistical interpretations... or something like that - I can't remember
exactly how they worded it.
Personally, I have no problem with the so called early bass season on
I can't argue with your findings about catching smallies off beds either. I
only caught one bass ever off a bed so obviously my experience is limited. It
was a largemouth in a little meso lake near my home
and it never went back to that bed. I do believe that it was already spawned
out though and may have been on that bed for a while since there weren't any
other fish on their beds that I could see. If I can be so bold to draw a
conclusion from what you're finding on bed fishing are, I am wondering if at
least some of those fish you caught weren't yet totally spawned out or in the
very early hours of nest protection.
As for the
Great stuff Scully... I think I see the glass half empty and you see it half
full. Fair enough. I respect your opinion on the subject and will keep an open
mind on the issue... as I would love to fish for bass all year!
I said my piece and will now retire from this thread... Thank you John G for
letting it stay.
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara
Posted
by Seth V on 2003 PM:
I was just thinking I
would stay on the sidelines after giving my brief input earlier, but I am
bored, watching ice continue to freeze on the lake. I hate winter.
Anyway, earlier in this thread I said I would never ever support any kind of
closed season whatsoever. I think this becomes a cultural thing,
most of you are from the northeast. I am not.
We all agree (ok, we don't all agree on anything, but most of us do) that NY
has some great bass fishing. Currently, all the season does is protect the pre-spawn period, not the spawn in many great
waters. If the fish are in good shape now, why on earth would we want to
further restrict our fishing?
This area of the country also has very little fishing pressure. I know that
sounds crazy to many of you, but if you have really fished all around the
country, you will agree with me. Our fish are underpressured,
and there are really not many dedicated fishermen in this area for the amount
of water available. I mean, if it were legal, how many folks would even be out
in late April? May? Unless it is 70 degrees, the masses stay home.
One of my favorite things to do, is bed fish. The
one-on-one close combat is an absolute thrill. I would hate to see it become
totally illegal. We have to remember, these are just fish. If you don't want to
hurt them, don't fish.
Just my opinions, feel free to disagree. Just remember
that you can find data to support nearly any opinion.
Seth V
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 PM:
Seth.
Your post reveals the
crux of the problem.
You stated that the season only protects the pre spawn.
That Seth, depends on where in this huge state with vast differences in lake
age, one is....
Pre spawn fishing (without harvest) is not injurious.
Bed fishing is potentially harmful in less fertile lakes where smallmouths are marginal and total spawn failure not
uncommon.
WE must NOT make management judgements based on our
untrained opinions within our limited experience on our "lakes"
Resource management is complicated and best left to experts who must consider
the resource first and the opinions and desires of the great unwashed second.
The finger lakes exception and the early season on
dick.
Posted
by mr jig
on 2003 PM:
Seth part 2
Seth.
My Paella dinner is now ready for my friends so you get my attention twice!
You enjoy bed fishing? So did i for years, and i KILLED them all and brought home 80qt coolers of fillets.
My catch was of course dominated by feisty 2.25 lb males.
Rarely did i get a quality fish and i finally realized that i might
be endangering nests for no good reason.
Don't judge pressure on your waters by the number of boats you see out.
On a summer day a lake may be crowded by boaters and casual anglers but in the
early season the boats that are out may well know what they are doing.
On the lakes where i have most of my early bed
fishing experience there are NO active panfish to
raid nests..
On the beds i fished ,
released bass went directly back to their beds unless i
put them on a stringer.
Still, i came to realize that i
could fish for an alternate species and let the males do their duty.
Absent any clear biological data for that specific lake i
came to give the benefit of the doubt to the bass.
That remains my practice.
dick
Posted
by Scully on 2003 PM:
aaaaaaaaghhhhhhh!!!
Dick
You KILLED smallmouth ?????? I would NEVER have
thought you capable of that....lol Taste good dont they? Especially stream smallies, ummmm!
Bassndude (Tony). I am NOT in favor of a complete
open season for bass in
In reference to the
Scully
Posted
by Scott E. on 2003 PM:
Scully,
Tony, Dick, Seth, Gangreen and all
quote:
Originally
posted by Scully
A survey/study (The New York State Bass Study) completed by Cornell
University in 1988 stated that while smallmouth bass were a more
"fragile" species during the spawn, if just TWO fry from each
spawning pair survived, a lake or river would soon become overpopulated. The
study went on to state that they felt a single fry from 1/2 (HALF!!!!!) the nesting
pairs was all that was needed to maintain a proper balance.
First I need to say, Thanks Ray!!!!, have you been
reading my stuff before I write it, or looking over my shoulder . I
too found an article stating such that all it would take is one fry from each
spawning pair each year to support a black bass population of a lake, stream,
river, pond, ect............and had it all writen up just waiting for permission from my sources to
copy and paste their work from the site I found it on, I will now just pass on
the links and you guys can read it for yourselves, quite interesting stuff.
My friend Gangreen from the Commonwealth from which I
now reside, believe it or not for bass fishing our state, PA ranks number 7 in
the lower 48.
Ok as far as those old arguments that bed fishing is bad for the fishery, well
maybe we should then outlaw some other things that are even more detremental to the spawning of black bass, quickly rising
temps, quickly falling temps, wind, rain, draught and floods, these things have
a much greater impact on whether or not fry will survive than predation on a
nest and bed fishing combined, but of course how do you set laws against mother
nature. I am ready to bet that this past years draught has had more impact on
last years spawn than all the years bed fishing has been allowed on Ct's Candlewood Lake, anyone want to take that bet, of
course by the time the yoy(young-of-year) are mature
enough for us to find out it will be 2007.
Here is a few links you guys may find interesting.
This from another state who's bass fisherman are not too happy with their
closed season either and expressing it on a Michigan BASS Fed. message board, a very good read.Bass seasons - what some fisheries biologists say
Boats.com - The Sacred Spawn
BASSMasters Article - Spawning bed fishing: right or wrong?
Abstract #: 950722201-29 By Steve Quinn*, In-Fisherman, STATUS OF SEASONAL RESTRICTIONS ON BLACK BASS FISHERIES
Abstract #: 948341721-73 By R. Weldon Larimore* Illinois Natural History Survey - TEMPERATURE ACCLIMATION AND SURVIVAL OF SMALLMOUTH BASS FRY IN FLOODED WARMWATER STREAMS
Species Profile Largemouth bass
For Gangreen and anyone who is interested in reading the proposal for PA to change its bass fishing regulations.
NEW BASS FISHING SEASON REGULATIONS PROPOSED
__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the
devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net
Posted
by Woody on 2003 PM:
Scotty
Did you ever think of changing
carreers....Say to work in the government
sector.....CIA or FBI
As always your uncanny ability to work the net comes through.
Outstanding!!!
Best,
Woody
Posted
by Scott E. on 2003 AM:
Woody,
there are only a few things I can't find on the net
Like the meaning of life
or how to become a millionaire overnight.
I did think about working for the government though..........Uummmm but if I tell you about it I would have to kill ya
Believe it or not it took a few hours of searching for those few articles and
studies, there is some great stuff about black bass it just takes time to wade
through all the other junk there is out there.
That bet I am making only applies to lakes as riverine
smallmouth tend to have a better recruitment of yoy
during draught conditions than their lake dwelling siblings and green cousins.
Now from much of what I have been reading, what about a season and size limits
that revolved around the weather? So since last year we had a draught, let's
say in 2006/07 the size limit goes to 18" for harvest and no bed fishing,
leaving all those now mature draught stricken fish to spawn and for them not to
be harvested through out the season as they would only be about 12"-
15" max. Now of course then you would have to have regional regulations as
the northern and western parts of the state did not deal with draught
conditions as we did downstate.
Of course no matter what kind of season someone decides to come up with there
will be those who will disagree, some who will like it and others who will just
go along with what ever someone else says, rather than question what
politically motivated state biologist say.
The USFWS' survey a few years back states NY and all of the Nor'eastern
states have more trout fishermen than bass fishermen, so in many ways I have to
agree with Seth as far as our waters being pressured. I remember on Table Rock
in Mo. seeing about 15 boats just in my area where I was fishing, Alabama a
small lake near Decataur(sp), guy were lined up on a
50' long fishing peir fishing for crappie and about
another dozen or so guys in rented boats, this lake was only about 120acres,
Tennessee's Crossville Lake a private lake with homes and resorts on it, a
small marina with boats to rent to residents and guests of the resort, I ended
up fishing from shore due to the fact that the boats had been reserved weeks
ahead of time, so how badly pressured are our lakes?
__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the
devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net
Posted
by Scully on 2003 AM:
beauty...eh!
Scotso.....nice work son.
Scul
Posted
by JOHN G on 2003 AM:
as always, Scott, you
remain the man.....NyBass.com would have never got off the ground if not for
intelligent people like you that have been posting the way you do from day
one.......
looking forward to seeing you sometime this winter my friend....
JOHN G
__________________
"and a new Commandment I shall give you.....that you shall love one
another"
---------------------------------
> email
- DrBass2@aol.com
> Forum Moderator aka:
Head Honcho
---------------------------------
Quote: "coming
soon"
---------------------------------
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2003 AM:
Hey
Scott.
I'm going to have to stop
disagreeing with you on these threads or people will think that you and I
always disagree. I'm quite certain that we have more common ground than points
of contention. I look forward to discussing some of these points with you on
the water some day, maybe on the Susky.
Anyway, thanks for the data. A couple of points. First
of all, as has been pointed out here ad infinitum, it is unfair to compare the
management of southern waters or of largemouth waters to the management of smallie waters. Apples and oranges.
Secondly, it's obvious that weather and water conditions can have an adverse
effect on recruitment but that's beyond our control. That argument would be
akin to me saying that since coyotes kill a few deer and turkey that I may as
well ignore the bag limits for them. Lastly, you point out that
PA ranks 7th out of 48 in bass fishing. What precisely are you referring
to? Numbers of anglers? Quality of
the fishery? I don't know exactly how they would determine such a thing.
In my humble opinion the bass fishing in PA just isn't very good, with the
exception of some fine river fishing on the Susky and
I am not at all opposed to more liberal seasons in certain respects. I'm just
not a huge fan of bed fishing for bass or the removal of fish during the cold
water periods of the year. That still leaves lots of fishing over the course of
the year. I'm fortunate to also enjoy panfishing,
walleye fishing, trout and salmon fishing as well as bowhunting,
bunny hunting, muzzleloader hunting and spring turkey hunting so I'm not as
affected by season closures as some of you guys are. I certainly understand
your position, just don't agree with it.
Posted
by Woody on 2003 PM:
Gang
It is all about
INFORMATION.....We just need to share it ....voice opinions and let people make
an educated choice.
This thread only got better and better...
Thanks
Woody
Posted
by Scott E. on 2003 PM:
Hey Bill
quote:
Originally
posted by GANGGREEN
I'm going to have to stop disagreeing with you on these threads or people
will think that you and I always disagree. I'm quite certain that we have more
common ground than points of contention. I look forward to discussing some of
these points with you on the water some day, maybe on the Susky.
That's ok, I have much respect for you either way my
friend.
My dad always said that if he said something was black I would have to argue
the point and try to get him to believe it was white, just my nature at times,
I like a good healthy debate and sometimes I will even argue the point if I am
not totally for it. Maybe I missed my calling, maybe I should have been a
lawyer instead of a lowly maintenance mechanic........Naaaaahhhh...I would have to work to hard....Now I get paid
very well, get all the overtime I want and do very little........what a racket
Am I totally convinced that bed fishing would not harm a fishery, absolutely
not, I don't think there is a good enough evidence to support it on small lakes
and ponds. Larger lakes such as Eirie and the
I also was reading something about a study that was talking about the larger
better spawning smallmouths may actually spawn much
deeper than the smaller fish, protecting them a bit more from the shore line
roaming eyes of bed fishermen. If I can find it again I will post the link.
Bill, if you find yourself headed to the Pike County area let me know, I would
not mind showing you around any one of my private little lakes here in my
community, of course I need to get to know these waters a bit more intimately
before I can give you a good guided trip.
And to Ray and my pals Johny G. and Woody, thanks
guys I feel quite complimented and I will be seeing you soon guys....NYBass U. is coming soon and I will not miss it!!!!
__________________
Nothing sets a person so far out of the
devil's reach as humility.
Jonathan Edwards
---
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2003 PM:
Scott, I may have to
take you up on that.
I hear that there are big
perch in some of those private lakes in your neck of the woods.
Posted
by mikeD in NYC on 2003 PM:
this thread kicks ass!...
i think we should start a "Classic Threads"
section of NYBASS to keep threads like these intact beyond the 6 month
period... excellent contributions guys!
__________________
Mike D in NYC
Webmaster NYBI
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check out your NYBASS buddies at: NYBASS_ILLUSTRATED
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Posted
by Bassin Dude on 2003 AM:
I finally got around to
reading all the threads that Scott posted.
(Thanks again for posting them Scott)
Bill already mentioned... we're talking apples and oranges here. Many of the
threads are talking about largemouths in southern
impoundments. This thread, and MYSELF were talking about smallmouth in
If anyone is using southern water bass fishery studies or a Bassmaster
outdoor writer's opinions to argue the point for a totally open bass season in
Scully, please give "your guy" at the DEC my email address: bassindude@adelphia.net . I would
like to ask him a couple questions.
__________________
Tony
"As my own fishing seasons wind down to a
precious few, it's nice to know I'll be there, be there as long as I can. As
long as I can bait a hook and make a cast, as long as I am living, I intend to
be fishing."
-Ron Schara