Posted
by JOHN G on
Typical Over Analysis.....Bear with me...
I love to beat to death
tactic talk, but thinking all day about the big fish at Croton and the others
caught at that time with it....
after peppering those very defined weed edges for the better part of two days
with T-rig worm to no avail, and then seeing Jeff work his senko magic OVER the
weeds to almost no avail.....it was amazing to see the most simple of tactics
finally work, slow fall of the senko at those very same weed edges with nary a
bit of action imparted to the lure at any point and immediately retrieving it
and tossing it again after it reached the bottom and sat there unmolested for a
while.
what was so interesting was that we DID have a good location, and there WAS a
vertical presentation going on, but I forgot the most basic rule of fishing
technique: speed and depth......
the vertical thingy was there, but it had to be floated down slowly on that
agonizing Senko drop.....once Jeff positioned his senko attack on the very same
edges he cashed in on an immediate 3 fish also.
the T-rig was falling just a little too fast for them and jigging it up and
down on the bottom in that location also did not rock their boat.......but
seeing that stupid senko fall tantalizingly at an inch a second or whatever the
hell it does, prompted the feed me instinct.......
You know, to not see what was going on here would be to miss a terrific
point.....to argue at length about what color inspired it or us, ( Jeff and I had two completely different colors!).....or to
start another long argument about whether one knock off or the other would have
been better or worse or saved someone more money would be an equally futile
Jedi mind trick!
The point was just a simple observation of a phenomena
that you have to lock in your mind in the endless learning game of bass
fishing.
the senko/salty sinker/cum cigar bait was again, JUST
ANOTHER TOOL FROM THE BOX.....
it was an approach, a presentation......
combined with the right location AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME, it worked,
period.....no hocus pocus.....
it is what makes this bass fishing thingy of ours so maddening sometimes, and
how the impossibly simple can be so impossibly convoluting and vice versa...
and here is the rub: that same jigging of the T-rig
that they had no interest for at the deep weed edge, but yet they just loved
the outrageous jigging of the blade bait in the 25 foot depth!!!!
a hunk of virtually formless metal, bizarre to
anything that really swims or lives.....
looks like another sleepless night...LOL!!!
__________________
JOHN G Forum Administrator
Posted
by dodgeguy on
now if you can answer why those 2
techniques worked then you would be a bass fishing god!!!that's
what makes this sport so hard to master.you still had a good day with your 6
pounder even if it was slow at first.sometimes it takes a while to find
something that works.
__________________
chrysler master tech and avid fisherman
Posted
by Gregg on
I don't know John, I think it was location over presentation. Wasn't your last spot a weed edge off a submerge hump/island? From what I gathered at pizza all the guys in the southern end who caught a few more fish at one time hit a submerged hump and caught fish. Something Mark and I didn't see in the northend.
__________________
Gregg
Posted
by CD_basser65 on
FLIPS
Fish+location+presentation=success
At least thats what the people at in-fisherman called it.It could also be what
your doing when you get to your favorite fishing spot and the motor doesnt
start you drop a pole in the water and then it starts to poor. 
Mikey
Posted
by JOHN G on
keep in mind though
Gregg, I had hit all of those same deep edges in the morning with the T-rig
worm....
there is no question that location is extremely important, but we can be on the
right spot and not have the right presentation.....
CD quoted the familiar Al Lindner equation, and I guess that sums it up......
notice though, that in the Lindner Equation there is no mention of color or
brand!
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JOHN G Forum Administrator
Posted
by MikeM on
John,
Also keep in mind that fish in deeper water are less affected by cold front
conditions (sunlight/pressure),therefore, will be more active and take a more
aggressive presentation.
MikeM
Posted
by dodgeguy on
that's one of the best
reasons for learning how to fish deep that i have ever heard.since i have
joined this board i have tried to fish deeper and have had sucess with it when
everything else fails.john has also become a master blade baiter much to his
advantage.john g.,what do you use for tackle with the blade bait?
__________________
chrysler master tech and avid fisherman
Posted
by Mark G on
Question: John, where was
the sun line when you fished that hump? Was it directly overhead, or was there some
shade? I think I know where you guys were, but I'm wondering if shade played a
role in holding those fish.
I am certainly scratching my head about certain things from Sunday. It sounds
like humps/sunken flats/submerged islands are great fish holding structures in
the summer. But why didn't they hit for John and Jeff in the early morning?
Were the fish somewhere else, like up shallow chasing bait, or were they there,
but the presentation was wrong? Not sure we'll ever know, but perhaps people
will chime in with some interesting info. John, did you mark fish in your
electronics when you passed that spot earlier in the day?
There are some presentations I wish I had tried, like a drop shot in that 14-16
ft. range off the deep weed edge. Oh well, there's always next time....
Mark
Posted
by HugeFish4 on
I "love ya"
John, but your are over analyzing the situation and
inferring causal relationships that are most likely in your mind and not
reality. You automatically assume that the fish did not want the t-rig, but
rather wanted the slow tantalizing fall of the Senko and the erratic jigging of
the blade bait. Well my assumption is that if you fished the t-rig ALL DAY
without deviating, you would have caught fish as well. Then your analysis would
have stated that you need to patient and persistence with the t-rig in order to
be successful. Point is, we never really know what is causing fish to strike a bait at a particular moment. Most likely, the fish just
"turned on" at the time you were using whatever you were using at the
time! LOL!
Moreover, I will never believe that a fish will hit a Dildo, but nothing else!
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...and none of these fish were caught on Senkos!!!
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Nas Mada
Posted
by bald eagle on
John,
It is just that kind of analysis that may help you catch more fish in the
future...Of course if you get too deep into the thought process the only
fishing will be you trying to "fish" your self out of that funny
white coat...
Seriously, though taking your time to analyze the situation can pay off. I had
my best day on Sodus this past weekend because of that thought process.
I will detail it in a separate post....
Bald Eagle
Posted
by res dog on
Well said hugefish,I tend to agree with what you said more so since I did use
a trig all day without really putting it down. In that thought I was looking
for 5 or 6 strikes, and to do that under bluebird sky type conditions you have
to remain confident and have some kind of plan. I think the confidence factor
is a hidden tangible, we all have our confidence lure
to go to when the going is tough. Using a depthfinder to pinpoint hidden
structure was a factor, 16 - 20 ft depths.Areas that harbored submerged humps
offshore were the ticket for me. However the method john g used is just as
deadly and proved to be so, perhaps it was just a matter of finding similar
structure to milk during the 6 hours. Either way you are right persistence and
patience will pay off at all levels of this game and perhaps that is what makes
this gamefish so special and keeps us coming back for more even if we are
proved wrong.
resdog
p.s. Id rather enter in a photo contest with the Baron than a senko contest,
because he is Gooood!!
Posted
by bigredfishing on
when the fish are being persnickety like that, i like to go for a reaction strike, using a straight tail worm or BPS stick-o, with a 1/8 oz weight...t-rigged. this rig falls straight down and falls very fast....great technique for "funky" fish.
__________________
Keep searchin' 'till ya find 'em
ever heard of selective harvest?
fishing...it is not my hobby, nor obsession...it is
just what i do
Posted
by JOHN G on
Huge: what you say might
be true, but it is colored by your insane objection of the senko......again,
refer to my tool analogy....
RES DOG: T-rig is a great confidence bait for me, much
more than senko, which is really only the last two or three years.....T-rig
worm still remains about my favorite overall, along with Slider fishing......
Dodge: I am using the exteme combo from BPS: Extreme BC with a 6 foot 6 inch MH
BC rod.....I use 15 pound Fluroclear....I find heavier line runs those blades
better with less foul up..... I attach a split ring to the hole on top, instead
of using a snap
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JOHN G Forum Administrator
Posted
by dodgeguy on
thanks john!!!
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chrysler master tech and avid fisherman
Posted
by MikeYac on
John,
Most of my fish this year on
My point is that fish can hit anything, anywhere with any given presentation.
In the summertime I fish 3 rods one with a slow presentaion (usually a wacky
rig or light t-rig), one with a fast reaction bait (usually a crankbait,
spinnerbait or a spoon) and the third with what I feel the conditions will
bring the fish to bite (different colors and techniques and size of the bait).
Many times I would throw a wacky rigged worm at shoreline with no results than
my next cast with a spinnerbait or a spoon and I would catch a fish. And same vice-versa.
I believe Huge is right. These fish could be off in the morning than their
appetites pick-up during the afternoon. So what we throw at them at on time
during the day, in a particular spot, may not produce at that time but often
will produce at another point of the day in that same spot.
I have favorite hotspots that I like to fish at least 2 or 3 times a day.
Sometimes they will produce fish on my first visit but many times they will
produce, not on the first, but on the second or third visit.
Good fishing to all!
MikeYac
Posted
by Gregg on
quote:
keep in mind though Gregg, I had hit all of those same deep edges in the morning with the T-rig worm....
The exact same ones? Hmmmm maybe they weren't there in
the morning.
All I know is as Mark and I fished endless deep weed edges without much luck
and were pondering what to do. Mark rightly stated we
needed some second element a transition from the endless deep shoreline and
points. I think in this case the submerged hump is that second element.
__________________
Gregg
Posted
by JOHN G on
forgot to answer Mark G's question about
the sun and it is an important one.....
I was explaining to Jeff that you will always have a better chance during the
summer daylight hours if you fish the deep weed edges that have the SUN BEHIND
THEM! This creates a natural shadow effect.......
that is why we hauled back over the reservoir to the hump because the position
of the sun was now favorable to that situation.
__________________
JOHN G Forum Administrator
Posted
by PapaJohn on
What else works deep?
We can analyze all we
want, but fact is John G. caught the big fish of the day, and on a very tough
day.
John G., I know you had a post about this on the old board, but could you
repost the basics of bladebaits? What are they, how do you fish them, when is
the "right" time/place, etc. I remember some of it, but it would be
nice to hear it again, also for the benefit of guys who remember less than I
do.
Also, and I know this could get involved, but what else do people use to go
deep that isn't mentioned here?
__________________
John Weidner
Every hour you fish adds an hour to your life.
Posted
by dodgeguy on
jigging spoons and drop shots.
__________________
chrysler master tech and avid fisherman
Posted
by Senkosam on
quote:
I believe Huge is right. These fish could be off in the morning than their appetites pick-up during the afternoon. So what we throw at them at on time during the day, in a particular spot, may not produce at that time but often will produce at another point of the day in that same spot.
That is exactly what's been happening in the higher-than-average water-levels,
locally. The bite has been best between mid morning and
The fish were where I expected them to be - narrow shoreline flats with islands
of pads, pads along the south and northwest ends, rock flats at the north end
and 'lanes' that paralleled the above in 5'. We all caught fish, but I caught
more panfish and smaller bass with my grub. The other two caught larger and
more bass by never switching between Senkos and Stik-Os worked wacky or
texposed. The best action started at
So I'd have to prioritize the best elements as to our success in the order that
proved itself for active fish: time, place, and lastly presentation/lures. If
the time (for the present conditions) isn't right, presentation and location
won't matter and in mid-spring, time and presentation might not be factors at
all. In low, warm, stagnant water of the dog-days or during late fall, time of
day may be critical.
Are solar/lunar periods important? I can't let them affect when and where I
fish, but maybe fish activity and position are related. It's definitely most
important in tidal waters, but only as far as the tidal cycles.
Was there a best lure/presentaion combo John? Guess it depends on when
and then where you threw it.
FrankM
Posted
by earthworm77 on
John, could it be that the bass were migrating from deep to shallow and simply were not on the shallow weedlines when you went through? A possibility...no?
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Posted
by JOHN G on
Yes Earthy, there is no
question in my mind that these fish are parking out in the 25 foot zone as
evidenced by the ones that took the blade bait in that depth......I do believe
that they cruise to the deep weed edges to feed right now and then head back
out to deep water......
I do NOT believe that they bury themselves in the middle of the weeds in this
water......
first of all, most of the weeds are relatively narrow bands, not unlike the
inside/outside tandems that you see in Candlewood....
they are not , in Jeff's area, huge sprawling weed beds, which extend from
shorline to a good hundred feet or more out.....weedbeds such as that, with say
lily pads first, then heavy matting and then thinning out milfoil, I do believe
can harbor bass all year, but the narrower ones that we were seeing in that
section of Croton seem more like the deep to edge of weed type cruising
pattern, often confirmed by telemetry studies published several times over the
years at IN Fisherman........
Papa John: I will put together a Blade Bait thingy soon and post it on Tackles
and tactics section.
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JOHN G Forum Administrator
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