Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:
A challenge for the
board.
Most of you know what I
do for a living and know that I hate game and fish law violators. I don't buy
their lame excuses that "if I didn't do it someone else would" or
"I only do it to feed my family". These are excuses, not
justifications. As far as feeding their families, these people can get a road
killed, crop killed or legally killed deer from a conservation officer or
"sharing the harvest" program and don't need to poach.
I'm sure that most on this board are true sportsmen that would never
intentionally violate our fish and game laws. I'm also sure that there are at
least a few board members that may occasionally violate the law. For those of
you in this group my challenge will be easy; stop violating the law and be
proud of your newfound sporting ethic. Now go try to change another person or
two.
For those of you that try to abide by the law for the most part my challenge
may be a bit more difficult but should be achievable by every member of this
board. I'd like each of us to make an effort to turn in at least one game or
fish law violator this year. Through a concerted team effort we CAN make a
difference. Remember, poachers and violators are stealing from YOU. In addition
they make ALL sportsmen look bad to non-hunters and non-anglers. Some of these
violators have big mouths and unfortunately most non-anglers don't
differentiate between us and them.
Here are some steps that should help.
* Get to know your local ECO. Most of these guys/gals are quite friendly and
don't mind being approached by sportsmen (unless the poor schmuck is trying to
eat his lunch or spend time with his family and most don't even mind too much
then). Have the ECO's or the DEC's phone numbers handy and don't be afraid to
use them to report violations.
* If you witness a violation take down as much information as you can possibly
remember about the encounter including things like:
- the violator's appearance. height, weight, eye and hair color, dress,
mannerisms, tattoos, etc.
- vehicle that the violator was driving including color, make, year and license
plate number.
- date and time that the violation occured as well as the specific location.
- what actually occured. You can't give an ECO too much information. Tell
him/her EVERYTHING that you remember even if you aren't sure if it's relevant.
* If you feel inclined to confront an individual, do so only if there is a
valid reason for doing so and only if you feel comfortable doing it. There is
no game or fish law violation that is worth getting seriously injured for. If
you do approach the individual, even as a friendly gesture, DON'T tell him/her
that you're turning them in. This only gives them opportunity to come up with a
story and destroy evidence. It also may make them behave aggressively or
violently toward you. In general I would advise that members of the general
public avoid making contact with violators.
* Report violations immediately, not when you get around to it or happen to run
into an ECO. If you fail to report an incident immediately most violations can
never be prosecuted.
* Be willing to testify against the violator, this is a HUGE help in the ECO's
battle to prosecute bad guys.
* If you're unwilling to testify you should still contact the ECO and report
the violation. The ECO will maintain your anonymity if that is what you want.
Remember that without informants any law enforcement officer's job becomes much
more difficult and a good officer would never give away the identity of a
confidential informant.
Of the game and fish law violations that I've personally prosecuted which
probably amounts to close to 1000 over the years, probably half were "on
sight" violations that I picked up from being in the right place at the
right time and half were successful because of the involvement of well-meaning
sportsmen. I truly believe that if you aren't part of the solution then you are
part of the problem. Wildlife belongs to ALL citizens and along with that come
certain responsibilities as stewards of that wildlife.
Be proud of your involvement with the law enforcement community. For too long
decent people have avoided any involvement because they're worried about what
their drinking buddies or relatives will think if they become an informant to
police/game wardens. It's time for us to "take back the streets".
If you meet this challenge this year be proud of your involvement and post the
outcome on the board. I'm sure it would be interesting for all of us to read
how the other board members helped to prosecute poachers, illegal dumpers,
closed season hunters and anglers, etc. (by the way, I'm sure that the police
officers on this board feel the same way about criminal laws. I hope that we'll
all make more of an effort to become involved in "taking a bite out of
crime").
The gauntlet has been dropped. Will YOU meet the challenge?
Posted
by Charlie on 2002 AM:
I have no idea what you
do for a living Bill but I can only assume it is perhaps in a branch of law
enforcement?
You are saying what so many think, but do not say. You are to be commended and
I for one agree that those who blatantly break the law both for fishing and
hunting should have all rights and privilages removed for life. Licences should
be worn on the outside of the clothing in such a way that they can be
seen.Other states do it, but we do not mandate it especially for fishing. IF a
person has a licence, they also have the rules, then there is NO excuse.
Perhaps that is a start to identify those who take and take, but give nothing
back.
The government, who gladly accept yours and my licence fees each year, must
however take a large proportion of the blame for failing to install teams of
officers to target "known areas" where these crimes are committed. If
for one moment I thought they would do something like that, I would be willing
to pay more for the privilage of fishing in our great state.
Here on Long Island, I see how the lakes, stream and ponds get used and abused
by people from all over the world on a regular basis, including garbage dumping
and we as a body of sportsmen have an obligation not only to ourselves but to
the generation that comes after us, to give them a fighting chance at these
sports.
Remember, PETA and others are just waiting to take it all away from us.
cussin
Keep up the work Bill and be controversial. Eventually it will sink in and more
people will jump on the wagon!
Charlie
__________________
Naturalized American (yeah baby)Tournament Angler, Journalist and New York
State Guide # 2803
"Come with me and I will make you Fishers of Men"
Posted
by theole34 on 2002 AM:
great
post. my .02 Bill, just to reiterate on approaching the violator..
it is best to leave that to the officers. be a great witness, but be careful
with approaching these people. reasons...
1. usually remote location.
2. sometimes armed - at least a knife.
3. you will not be backed by state or county if incident occours, but officer
is.
4. we need you around a few more years.
i have called NYState Environmental Consv. Officers for a few reasons here on
LI, and they are quick to act, and quite professional.
Bill gives really good ideas on how to be a good witness.
You can always tell someone that you don't like or appreciate how they are
treating the enviroment, but leave the confrontations to Gangreen, and his
fellow LE officers.
again Bill, Great Post!!
quote:
If you
feel inclined to confront an individual, do so only if there is a valid reason
for doing so and only if you feel comfortable doing it. There is no game or
fish law violation that is worth getting seriously injured for. If you do
approach the individual, even as a friendly gesture, DON'T tell him/her that
you're turning them in. This only gives them opportunity to come up with a
story and destroy evidence.It also may make them behave aggressively or
violently toward you. In general I would advise that members of the general
public avoid making contact with violators.
Posted
by Sluggo / NY on 2002 AM:
Bill..I totally
agree..But..
First of all, let me make
it clear that I'm not a racist! One of our neighboring towns was deemed a
"settlement" community and given federal funding to open there arms
to an influx of Asian immigrants. Several of the multi-family dwellings that
they inhabit are within walking distance of the river dam that is the largest
walleye spawning area around. They even close this area to ALL fishing during
the walleye spawn! As I said, I agree with all that you said, but it's very
disheartening to have a ECO actually tell you that he won't bother with the
groups of people taking buckets of undersized fish..out of season..because the
courts will not back them up! I used to take the dog for a walk to check the
area, but I get too upset to do it anymore! We were actually hailed to shore to
be checked by our local ECO who had just walked past a group that were making a
haul from the bank! Again..I praise your efforts and know this shouldn't deter
me, but this thread just hit a nerve! I'm open to suggestions! Good Fishing,
Sluggo (Chris)
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:
Thanks Charlie.
As a matter of fact I'm a
conservation officer in
In regards to your comment laying the blame on government for not targeting
hotspots I have a couple of points to make. First, although it may seem like a
no-brainer to you, perhaps your local officers truly aren't aware of the
trouble areas that you refer to and would be glad to get together and work them
if a group of concerned sportsmen sat down with them and addressed the problem.
Perhaps you've already done so and it doesn't seem to have paid off. Try to
keep a couple things in mind. First of all, conservation law enforcement
doesn't always work fast. I've frequently told informants something to the
effect of "don't get discouraged if I don't get Joe Schmoe right away. The
fact that I haven't caught him in a year or two doesn't mean that I've given up.
Every dog has his day and I WILL get him eventually".
Another thing to keep in mind is that most conservation agencies are terribly
underfunded and undermanned. This is one of the things that puzzles me the most
when sportsmen complain about license fees that most of us agree are quite
cheap. Here in PA my agency is more or less self-funded. We don't accept any
general fund (regular tax dollars) monies and we have to bring the money in
with license fees, timber cuts and Pittman Robertson funds (an excise tax
placed on sporting arms, ammunition, fishing tackle, etc.). In the entire state
of PA there are approximately 120 full time wildlife conservation officers.
Each of these officers is already somewhat overburdened in their own
"patrol zone" and it would be difficult to send 10, 15 or 20 of them
on any given day in hunting season to sweep a problem area. It isn't that our
officers wouldn't love the opportunity to do that kind of law enforcement, it
just isn't very practical when you consider the realities of the situation.
In NY state it might even be worse because even though NY has many more full
time officers than PA does, your ECOs are responsible for trespass, pollution,
etc. and the PA guys are concerned only with game and fish law violations (along
with a million other things like habitat improvement, public relations, hunter
education, administrative duties, etc.) Most people don't understand how many
hours in the day, week, month and year that these other activities take up for
a conservation officer. Unfortunately we don't have 40 hours or more a week to
give to law enforcement.
I think that until the general public (non-consumptive users) recognize the
importance of wild things and wild places and begin to help foot the bill for
conservation we'll likely always be in this same understaffed and
underappreciated position.
The fact is that almost everyone values wildlife. Tons of people mountain bike,
horseback ride, bird watch and just plain enjoy wildlife and state maintained
wildlife areas but it's the anglers and hunters that are footing the bill.
Another example that might hit closer to home for those on this board would be
the fact that all boaters and owners of personal watercraft benefit from the
launch ramps that are provided by the DEC but it's the anglers that foot the
bill. Doesn't seem quite right, does it?
All sportsmen are going to have to become more involved if they care about the
resource and want to see quality law enforcement. It's fine to complain to the
agency, the officer or the governor if things aren't being done as they should
be but too few sportsmen go to bat for the agency and/or officers when they're
doing a whale of a job. In my humble (and not so uneducated opinion) the
sportsmen of NY state are getting a lot of bang for their buck and should
appreciate it.
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:
Chris... I don't take
your comments...
As racist at all. It is
well known in the conservation law enforcement field that a lot of people of
Asian heritage have little respect for the fishing laws. I don't know if this
is an act of ignorance (most likely) or greediness but it should be confronted.
I'm not suggesting for one second that any conservation officer would be guilty
of "racial profiling" but when confronted with an obvious violation
most COs are more than happy to take the bad guys to court.
I know of MANY arrests that have been made on Asians in NY and PA for taking
huge hauls of undersized walleye, bass, you name it. If your local ECO turns
his back on it then the sportsmen should encourage him or her to try again. If
the judge doesn't do their job then the judge should be taken to task by the
people that elected him.
Again this is not a bash on Asian Americans. I have had MANY friends in my high
school and college years who were of Asian ancestry and in general I think that
they are harder working and brighter than most "regular Americans".
Assuming that there are witnesses (I'll presume in the cases that you mention
that there are), victims (we're all victims when fish are stolen by outlaws)
and a prosecuting officer who proves his case beyond a reasonable doubt, then
the judge should have NO RIGHT to ignore the problem.
Sometimes when I get a decision that I don't neccessarily agree with from a
judge and my witnesses become disheartened I try to remind them that the system
usually does work. If nothing else the violators were made to appear in court
and often had to pay for an attorney. In addition, even if the judge finds them
not guilty he/she is still aware of the charges and is far less likely to find
them not guilty for a second or subsequent charge. Seems like a pretty hollow
victory but sometimes you have to take what you can get.
We just have to hang in there and keep trying to do the right thing because
doing the right thing does have some value in and of itself.
Posted
by earthworm77 on 2002 AM:
Billy, Charlie,
Robbie....good points and great posts. Here on LI I haven't noticed any
poaching as far as hunting is concerned but I do see people take undersized
fish and keep fish out of season. It burns me up to think that I let all of the
fish I catch go regardless of season only to see a guy keep a 10 inch bass in
April. These things should be reported but there is little manpower to deal
with the situation when it occurs. Bill, if I reported someone, how does the
DEC deal with that person if I get a license plate number and physical
description? Being law enforcement myself, I don't think any complaint would
stand up in court unless it wass observered by the arresting/summonsing
officer.
__________________
www.micromunchtackle.com
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:
Craig, in general...
I don't have a problem
with those cases as long as I have a witness who can point a finger in court
and say, "that's the guy Judge. That's him right there in the blue
shirt".
I've prosecuted hundreds of cases in similar circumstances and have only lost a
few because I didn't personally witness the violation. Now in fairness, I live
in a very rural area; the judges know me and trust my integrity. Perhaps in a
more populated area where the judges don't know the officer or where high
priced defense attorneys will look for any defense, these cases might not work
as well.
In addition your rules of evidence in NY state very well may be different than
here in PA so I would have to defer to you and the other police officers but as
I said before, it hasn't been a problem for me.
Posted
by theole34 on 2002 AM:
last season i was
approached more by local LE than by Enviromental LE. parking was the number 1
reason.
as for ECO's .. the ones i dealt with last year were great. several times all
fishing from shore was checked. several "harvesters" were cited, and
sent on way. one individual was arrested on site for marijuana use. i have also
seen licenses taken at west brook, which was interesting, because this is tidal
and no license is needed. Bill, can they still take feshwater license from a
guy that violates tidal rules where a license is not needed? i don't disagree
with it. was keeping 8" brookies.. they had been observing him. artist has
a great population of serious anglers, but the "harvester" problem is
big. i made this my personal problem last year by making several phone calls. i
hope to see a strong DEC and EC presence there this year.
had my license checked numerous times at lake ronkonkoma by state, and county.
Local PD gets involved there also. DEC guys there are involved! lunker dave and
the creel guys (Sol H.) i commend you. your mere presence kept many unwanted
"bucketeers" away!!
all in all i think 2001 looked better on LI. But the garbage.... well, that'll
be another post.
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM:
Robbie
In PA the COs don't
"take" licenses. The revocation process here is handled
administratively and I don't believe that sort of thing happens here.
To clarify something I'm a "bunny cop", I don't do alot of fish work
so I'm not familiar with the tidal regulations. In PA, unlike in NY, our
officers either work for the PA Game Commission or the PA Fish and Boat
Commission. We're now the only state that has seperate agencies for fish and
game. That being said, we do have authority to enforce the other agency's
regulations and we frequently work together.
The garbage is my next rant. I'm presently on a letter writing campaign to our
local paper about the TONS of garbage littering our county's roadways. County
residents proudly proclaim this county as "God's Country" but
apparently have no trouble despoiling God's creation.
Remember the Native American on TV with the tear running down his cheek? That's
me except I'm a short balding Italian guy.cussin
Posted
by ADKBass on 2002 AM:
I agree of course with all
of the posts and I am glad someone mentioned people throwing out their trash.
Last year, this guy from out-of-state, threw a Burger King bag full of stuff
out the window while flying past me (across a double yellow line too). All of
the stuff went flying into the woods!
About 20 minutes later I was fortunate enough to meet up with him at a gas
station. I took out my trash and dropped it right in the garbage can next to
him and said, "hey man, you see? -- these things really do work!"
I wonder if he got the message.
cussin 
__________________
"Time spent fishing does not count against our allotted time on this
earth." Joe V. - The Troll
Posted
by wnybassman on 2002 PM:
You know, in this day and
age of cell phones, there is no reason we can't report violations immediately.
Maybe I'll put our local DEC officers number on my speed dial, just in case.
I am predicting a hot spot in NY this year will be Chautauqua Lake. The first
Federation tx of the year is there on opening weekend, and many folks will see
the "need" to get on it early to get more time on the lake.
__________________
Bassman's Thread of the Web - A
Look at WNY's Bass Fishing
-
Protection and organization of your rods
"Perhaps God gave the answers, to those with nothing to say" -
Savatage
Posted
by judge66 on 2002 PM:
It always burned me up
when I work in enforcement the number of people that would fish without license
and think it is no big deal both resident and non-resident. I travel quite a
bit now and fish most places I go and always buy a license. Now that i am no
long with enforcement I still bugs the hell out of me everytime I see someone
fishing without a license, I paid for mine they should pay for one too.
They always have a story
The other thing and this is the one that I feel way to many people brake or do
is drinking and operating a boat and even worse a car. I had a boat rammed and
sunk by a guy that drank about a case a beer and though it would be funny to
rock my boat with a wake because I yelled at him for driving too fast in a no
wake zone, where I was fishing.
I like to drink when I fish but know when to say when
AND A NO WAKE ZONE IS DONE FOR A REASON, do not make wake you destory spawning
beds and shore lines cussin
Posted
by Pete L on 2002 PM:
I have had the DEP, DEC,
& NYS Police numbers on my cell phone for a few years now. On Muscoot, i`ve
called them at least 10 times in the last 3 years. On muscoot, the DEP police,
state troopers ended up arresting 4-5 morons having a cookout, swimming and
BATHING . One jerk was actually standing in the water washing his hair. Safe
bet not one had any type of lic. or permit.
They had been cooking the fish they caught.
Would be more than happy to call again. Pete
As far as the original point of this thread -- I have NEVER targeted Bedding
Bass, and never will. Legal or not. To me thats not fishing. If i fished
tournaments, it may be differant. But I doubt it.!!!!!!
__________________
Pete LaFemina
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and
"mental illness."
Posted
by rich on 2002 PM:
Not a racial issue at
all,but a cultural one.Many who are not too long in this country don't think
about fishing in the same terms that you or I might.I've tried at length to
explain to a Jamaican friend the idea of catch and release,but they just don't
see it in those terms.Fish = food period.I'm not making excuses for them,just
explaining their mindset.If caught,they should be reported.
Posted
by yankeesrule on 2002 PM:
I had a similar encounter
at Kensico.....i saw a couple supposedly fishing, she was just sitting by the
shore and he was swimming, and the worst part was he then grabbed some soap and
bathed...it was awful....unfortunately i didnt have my cell phone with me. On
the issue of immigrants seeing fish as food period, you could not be more
correct. I and my whole family immigrated to this country long ago, but up
until recently i would not even consider throwing a fish back....any fish, not
that i did any fishing but it was my mind set. My brother who now goes with me
alot thought i was crazy when i told him about catch and release...now he feels
very strongly about it...his kids go too, and they understand and accept catch
and release. My whole family is still set on the idea " if i caught it i
will keep it " I try to explain how its alot of fun just to fight a fish
and release it so someone else can catch it too....maybe YOUR SON. I have a
cousin that i get along with really well, and i would love for him to go with
me....but he refuses to go if we dont catch and keep all the fish. Its a case
of ignorance more than anything else. VIC.
__________________
I use senkos, therefore I am.
Posted
by bobn on 2002 PM:
the problem might be
because game laws are not looked upon as real laws--it's what you can get away
with--who cares attitude--when was the last time a game law violator made
headlines? when was one convicted in the press or otherwise?--like was
previously said--we have a moral obligation to police ourselves and our sport
if we don't want it to deteriorate or have big brother police it for us!
Posted
by george G. on 2002 PM:
Great
Post!!
You guys make some great
points! We as "SPORTSMEN" have to police ourselves before we lose
everyything. We have the same problems here in Jersey. Two years ago I was the
president of a small club [14 boats] and we had a 2 day tournament on
Champlain. Sept. 30 & Oct 1. We launched out of Ti so we needed 2 liscenses
for NY. At the day 2 weigh-in I was forced to DQ 2 boats for not having a valid
liscense. It's tough to do that to friends but it has to be done.
Keep up the good work and glad to be here! George G.
Posted
by bobn on 2002 PM:
welcome aboard
george-bobn
Posted
by Pete L on 2002 PM:
Vic - Same thing applies
to most cultures. My father-inlaw still can`t grasp the concept of catch and
release. He figures if you catch a fish -- you should eat it. Every time i go
he asks --Where`s the Fish?????. The only thing i ever have to show is a
picture. Unless, I catch a trout. That i give to a friend of mine.
Most people don`t have a clue how relaxing and enjoyable a
time it could be. Pete 
__________________
Pete LaFemina
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and
"mental illness."
Posted
by judge66 on 2002 AM:
That is a valid point
about, game laws not being see as real laws. From my experience most people
even when they do get caught which is far far less then the people who break
the laws the fines are so small, you pay more for a speeding ticket then for
most game violation, you can poach/kill an animal and get away with less of a
fine than doing 10 mph over the speed limit.
I speed, knowing what the fines are so if game laws carry less fines and even
less of a chance of being caught no wonder why so many people break game laws.
I would support increased fines for game law violations.
Maybe that should be the challange to gain better support for outr local game
and fish/boat commision, ECO, ect. to get more of them out on the water and in
the woods durring hunting season and also to push law makers to increase fines
for these crimes.
Just my 2cents
Posted
by theole34 on 2002 AM:
in the game and fish
laws.. are there greater fines for 2nd time offenders?
california judge has pushed in the past for a sentence that i think makes
sense. he makes an offender purchase a california state lifetime license for
fish and game = approx 700$. he also makes some pay donation to department that
they offended. his theory was that the money would benefit the depts more
direct than if they just pay a fine to the local and state govt.
interesting.
i am trying to find the article on this.. not cataloged too well.
Posted
by judge66 on 2002 AM:
now that may deter people
from breaking game laws, it is good to see that at least some people in the
court system are trying to make a statment, just wish more would do the same.
Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM: Robbie, Here in PA there is a
provision in the game law for a "time and a half" penalty for a
second offense of poaching a deer but unfortunately it's rarely applied. Posted
by judge66 on 2002 AM: They fine is only too
high if you broke the law!!!!!!! Posted
by GANGGREEN on 2002 AM: Judge, I agree with
most of your.... thoughts but there are
problems with what you suggest. Posted
by earthworm77 on 2002 AM: I may be wrong but didn't
we have a thread similiar to this where The Evil Tyrant uncharacteristically
stated the we should put all foriegners in pens like the gov't did to the
Japanese during WWII??? Strict for fishing rules violators. Then didn't someone
come on and say that we should put them all in a giant Cuisinart and we could
feed the homeless forever???? Oh, that may have been me. Sorry for that
outburst!! LOL __________________ Posted
by Scully on 2002 PM:
Greenman
Even though our penalties are generally higher than a speeding ticket (for
instance the penalty for killing a deer unlawfully is $500), they are still too
cheap in my opinion.
If litterers were charged more than $50 for throwing a beer bottle out the
window, there would likely be far less trash thrown around the countryside. Of
course, if the game and fish penalties were greatly increased you would see
alot of people complaining that those penalties were too high.
If you don't brake the law what do you care what the fine is?
And yes I believe first offense should be low, I am not saint I was fishing a
creek not too far off of a river in PA that was a "trout water" I was
fishing for smallies and did not have a trout stamp, luckly for me the
Fish/boat officer let me off with a warning, I honestly did not know it was
trout water and I was not targeting trout so I think the first offence needs to
be small or at least reasonable but 2nd and 3rd need to be much higher, I would
support jail time for 2nd and 3rd offence deer poachers. I think the fine needs
to be reasonable, I don't want to lock someone up for keeping a 8" bass or
fishing out of season but a few hundred dollar fine is not unreasonable for a
2nd or third offence. There are a lot of fisherman on this board and other we
are friends with that I think we could push for stricter game laws.
How many people will poach a deer if it ment jail time even if it is only a few
months. How many people would keep undersized fish if it ment 300-500 dollar
fine and yes I think the fines need to go toward the game/fish/boating
officals, projects, education not to the town or state government.
Most of our fines are statutory, they aren't up to the judge and they aren't
set on a sliding scale. In other words, if you violate section 2321b, the fine
is $500, no more, no less.
The rules of criminal procedure mandate that a citation is to be issued on the
spot of a violation unless there are circumstances which would prevent it (an
ongoing investigation would be an example of this). So to charge a different
fine for a second or subsequent conviction would require the officer to know
whether the defendant had ever been previously convicted which presently would
be difficult or impossible to do.
The best case scenario is probably still to set the fines high to act as a
deterrent and count on the good judgement of the field officer to issue a
warning instead of a citation in a case like yours where the officer believed
that a citation wasn't neccessary.
www.micromunchtackle.com
Great post my friend. Very little I can add other than a "count me
in". And Earthworm....your a hoot.
Scul