Posted by Bassin Dude on 04-21-2003 08:53 PM:

Please help ID this fish

Hi all,

Today, after work, my oldest son and I snuck out to South Park Lake in South Buffalo in hope of taking advantage of the great Crappie action we've been enjoying the past few days. You may remember on the old board I posted about some of my recent exploits there. Anyway, I caught this quite unusual fish...

What is this thing?

At first I thought it was a world record Golden Shiner but I'm starting to think that it's some kind of Carp but the structure of the mouth is throwing me off.

Does anyone know what kind of fish this is?

As for our outing... IT WAS GREAT!

In a couple hours of fishing, we caught at least 15 Crappie each. All except two were between 10 and 14 inches. Here is my son Anthony with one of his:

Anthony Jr. with a nice South Park Lake Crappie

I also had two incidental catches of Largemouth Bass. One was 2.5 pounds and the other was 3.5 pounds. Anthony lost a nice four pounder right at the bank when his 3.3 pound Tectan line on his ultra-light broke.

Two beefy bullhead rounded off my very enjoyable evening with my oldest son.

All of the fish were caught on small 1/16 oz Chenille/Marabou Crappie jigs tied on ultra-light rigs using 3.3 pound Tectan line.

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by JOHN G on 04-21-2003 09:02 PM:

Well, at least one member of the family is good looking! HAHAHHA....

Tony, you have just caught an overstuffed, sumo style Golden shiner...

look at the scales and the mouth, I believe that is the clue....

it does not look like a carp to me...

JOHN G

Posted by Rob J in WNY on 04-21-2003 09:16 PM:

Great pics, Tony!

Yes, I agree with John G. Golden Shiner you got there.

I gotta get out to SPL with ya soon, bud.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by Bassin Dude on 04-21-2003 09:17 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by JOHN G
Well, at least one member of the family is good looking! HAHAHHA....

JOHN G

I thank God everyday that my kids resemble their mother

You know John... when I caught it I thought it was a Golden Shiner but the more I looked at it, the more I started second guessing myself. Mainly, I think what was throwing me off was the size of the beast. I've caught big, long Golden Shiners before but none as fat as this porker.

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by Bassin Dude on 04-21-2003 09:22 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob J in WNY

...
I gotta get out to SPL with ya soon, bud.
...

No doubt Rob... I've been having a riot there. As for the Small Boat Harbor in Buffalo; if anyone is planning to go there, the water isn't warm enough yet for the Crappie to come in. I went there briefly yesterday (Easter) morning and nobody caught nuttin!

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by Scott E. on 04-21-2003 09:38 PM:

It's a mutant 3 eyed fish!!!!.....Ok, maybe not!!!

Tony,

I am not sure what that thing is either, except for that it is a fish.

All joking aside, maybe an exotic or pet goldfish someone set free, I have checked both the NYDEC and PF&BC websites fish index and it looks like nothing on either ones list. You may want to show the fish or at least the picture to someone at the DEC, might be something they should be aware of, we don't need another snakehead incident

All in all though looks as if both dad and son had a good day

John,

This below is a drawing of a golden shiner, it don't look like Tony's fish.

Identification: Adults can reach sizes of seven to 10 inches, and may live as long as eight years. Anglers sometimes catch larger adults while fishing for other species. The golden shiner is deep-bodied with a small head. It has gold-colored sides and an olive-brown back. The sides sometimes reflect a silver color. The fins in the adult are yellow or light-olive, and silvery in the young. The smallest young, those smaller than about four inches, appear silvery all over, as do other shiners. Young golden shiners have a dark lateral stripe that becomes fainter as the fish grows, until it is absent in adults. The lateral line is curved noticeably downward.
The golden shiner’s body has cycloid scales, but the head has no scales. It has four to six teeth in one or two rows on the pharyngeal arches. There are no teeth in the mouth. The golden shiner has a single, spineless dorsal fin with eight rays. The anal fin has 11 to 13 rays and is deeply curved.
The belly between the pelvic and anal fins is raised in a sharp keel that bears no scales.

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"The speckled trout wise in their generation, the black and red-spotted little beauties keep to their brooks; for, farther down, below the rush and fall, a newcomer is lord of the stream. He is an archenemy, a scorner of beauty and blood, the wolf-jawed, red-eyed, bronze-backed black bass." Zane Grey - The Lord Of Lackawaxen Creek

-----------------------------------------
Scott E.
scotte@pikeonline.net

Posted by tubeking on 04-21-2003 09:43 PM:

could it be a hybrid

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Posted by wnybassman on 04-21-2003 09:46 PM:

Looks like that "sumo" shiner someone brought to the scales during the IceShanty.com get together on Conesus. It was about that same size.

Tony, did it have bright redish orange fins??

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Posted by Bassin Dude on 04-21-2003 09:54 PM:

Good idea Scott... I'm going to take your advise and just for the heck of it forward that picture to the DEC.

Yes Noel, the fins were very bright red. Also the picture doesn't really show but the back was distinctively black and the sides golden orange.

tubeking... my son's the hybrid. Part brat, part loving son

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by wnybassman on 04-21-2003 10:03 PM:

Hmmmm, I bet it was the same kind of fish caught on the ice that day then. I just checked my picture archives, and apparently Rob didn't get a picture of that fish (can you believe it!)

Not sure what they called it, but the species didn't seem to surprise those standing around, just the size of it.

Posted by Gregg on 04-21-2003 11:06 PM:

quote:

All joking aside, maybe an exotic or pet goldfish someone set free,

That's what I was thinking looking at the mouth, someone set a goldfish free and it did well for itself!

__________________
Gregg

Posted by Cityboy on 04-21-2003 11:49 PM:

The first thing that popped in to my head when I saw the photo was a Creek Chub...I think they are related to a Golden Shineer but have a taller profile...

Posted by NO LUCK on 04-22-2003 12:52 AM:

I dont know the technical term but I used to call them a ROACH...dont know why...West lake in Patchogue used to be full of them back in the late 80's...

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Posted by TONY ON ICE on 04-22-2003 02:44 AM:

OK guys....you're half right on that fish. it is a shiner but not a golden shiner.
It's a typical Northern Redfin Shiner that's found in most of the great lakes and any bodies of water that are even remotely connected.
That redfin, although it looks quite large is one of normal size for lake Ontario.
I've caught and seen them as large as 13 inches and close to 2 lbs.
I caught one at Fairhaven State Park back in 1990 that was 12 7/8" and weighed 1 lb 11 oz's. It was one of the most beautiful fish I'd ever caught so I had it mounted. Unfortunately, a fire destroyed or house in 1996 and it was history along with many other fish and game mounts.

The redfin that's pictured is a typical springtime female that's egg laden and the body distorted. Most times you see them, they're more streamlined and the golden color of the main body will run more to the silver / gold color than the yellow gold that shows in the picture.
Pound for pound, they fight as hard as a smallmouth and will live forever in captivity with little care.
They do make good aquarium fish and will eat anything you throw in the tank.
On the other hand, they're also the biggest perch egg sucking scavangers that swim in our waterways. Also a favorite dinner of the Largmouth Bass and Northern Pike.
The bass fishermen down in south Florida pay through the nose for these big redfins. It's one of the few forms of baitfish that are transported from north to south.

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T.O.I.

Posted by tubeking on 04-22-2003 02:45 AM:

funny i like that .please let us know

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it takes a great angler to catch a lunker.it takes even a greater man to let him go.

Posted by Bassin Dude on 04-22-2003 06:06 AM:

Thanks for the info TOI.

Do you think that it goes by a name other then Northern Redfin Shiner? Because I did an internet search using those terms and only got one hit and it indicated that the proper name was Redfin Shiner and that the Redfin Shiner only gets about three inches long MAXIMUM. Searching the term Redfin Shiner produced numerous hits and all of them indicate the fish is about three inches long and none of the pictures look like the fish I caught.

Here are some links:

Redfin Shiner Link 1

Redfin Shiner Link 2

Redfin Shiner Link 3

Here is a typical picture of a Redfin Shiner that I found online:

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by Bassin Dude on 04-22-2003 06:53 AM:

I took Scott's suggestion and just forwarded a copy of the photo to the New York DEC. Hopefully, they'll get back to me soon. I shall post what they have to say here.

But, if anyone has any comments or ideas, don't hesitate to post. Has anyone else caught a Redfin Shiner like Tony On Ice? The specimen I caught definitely had red fins and his description seems the most plausable...

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by mikeD in NYC on 04-22-2003 07:55 AM:

it kinda looks like those giant goldfish you see in the chinatown aquarium stores

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Posted by Charlie on 04-22-2003 09:10 AM:

It is a CARUCIAN CARP

Gentlemen,

It is called a Carucian Carp.

As a boy in Europe I would hop over the school wall and fish for them all day long. Great fighting fish. The world record is 9lb and change.

Tight Lines!
Charlie

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Posted by Lpbassman on 04-22-2003 09:30 AM:

I would agree with Charlie. After looking at the fish it is definately something in the Carp or Gold fish family.

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Posted by BuckShotJon on 04-22-2003 10:56 AM:

You catch those all the time in Honeoye. I am going with a shiner on that fish, like Tony On Ice said a Redfin.

Being a diehard pike fisherman I can tell you they are Great for pike fishing! That size would catch you about a 15 Plus pound Pike in most cases.

The shiner pictured is exactly like the shiners we used last year on July 4th for pike fishing when I took my big swim.

Only one lady had them that size and she only charged $7.00 a dozen. A good deal! When you get a pike to hit one of these bad boys you know he is going to be large.

Jon

Posted by bassinbilly on 04-22-2003 11:52 AM:

Maybe??????

Posted by Lpbassman on 04-22-2003 12:25 PM:

Billy,
That looks like it. What is that a picture of?

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Posted by bassinbilly on 04-22-2003 12:45 PM:

My name is Rudd

This fish is a RUDD from the family of Chub,Dace and Roach (good name for a law firm) this info comes from the NEW encyclopedia of fishing.

Distribution: Europe from Ireland to the Urals and southern Sweden to northern Italy and Greece; introduced into the northeastern United States.

Rudd:
The deep bodied rudd grows to a maximum weight of about 4 lbs 7 oz. slightly more than that of the roach. Because it takes much of it's food at or near the surface, it is more easily located than the deeper-feeding roach and it makes it somewhat easier to catch. However the older larger individuals often lie deep and feed at the bottom. So bottom fishing may catch bigger (if fewer) rudd then fishing near the surface.

Posted by fishEguy on 04-22-2003 01:36 PM:

Holy Crudd..!....It might be a Rudd!....

http://www.invadingspecies.com/index.cfm?DocID=23&Type=Rudd

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Posted by Charlie on 04-22-2003 01:36 PM:

I am probably the ONLY freshwater angler on this site to catch Roach, Rudd, Dace, Perch, Grayling, Burbot, Chub, Mirror Carp, Leather Carp, Common Carp, Carucian Carp, Salmon, Bleak, Loach, Grayling, Golden trout, Brown trout, Rainbow trout, Brook trout, Zander, Stone Loach, Gudgeon, Barbel, Pope, Tench, Ruff and Bream. They are all as common in England and to some extent in Ireland, as the bass is in the US.

My first thought was the Rudd. Like the Carucian Carp it is a rare species here in the US. They both look very similar, but those large scales got me leaning towards a carp. Only via a personal fish collector or an enthusiast would those species find their way to these shores.

Having said that however, the British carried pike over to the US as a sport fish over 100 years ago and the species florished. It is possible that other fish came with them, we may never know the whole story.

FYI Carp, Roach and Rudd are members of the same family, so cross breeding and possible mismatching is inevitable. I would like to hear the D.E.C. viewpoint as I think this fish has been cut down to two possibilities.

Tight Lines!
Carucian Carp Charlie

Posted by JOHN G on 04-22-2003 03:16 PM:

Charlie, the only thing missing from your list is the common cold! LOL!!!

JOHN G

Posted by Lpbassman on 04-22-2003 03:27 PM:

I know that fish. His name is Eric.

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"early to bed, early to rise--fish like hell and make up lies"

Posted by Charlie on 04-22-2003 04:12 PM:

But I do have a fish licence for Eric...!!!!

Oh no, not more Python!

Tight Lines!
Charlie "the half a bee"

Posted by Lpbassman on 04-22-2003 04:17 PM:

Eric has a sister named Wanda--man whats fins
nudge nudge--know what I mean

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Posted by pitchindocks on 04-22-2003 05:03 PM:

It's a RUDD, basically a big minnow, they are EVERYwhere in the niagara river, i saw a school in spot right off of the main river on saturday and there had to 300 of them all that size!!! i did get 2 of em on crappie tubes, they fight like hell!!!!!!

Posted by Charlie on 04-22-2003 05:07 PM:

Well there ya go.. Pitching Docks just reminded me of something I had forgotten about Rudd, they school is the hundreds around this time of year to spawn.. They are one of the few freshwater fish in EUrope that bunch up in huge numbers. Dace are another species that often do that. I have seen them so thick in the water, it looks like you could walk across them!

Tight Lines!
Charlie

Posted by Bassin Dude on 04-22-2003 06:09 PM:

Thanks for the replies guys. It seems that bassinbilly nailed it. After reading his post I looked up some info on the Rudd and all the descriptions and pictures I saw seem to indicate that the fish I caught is in fact a Rudd. Thanks Billy!

Charlie, you're great! You Australians never cease to amaze me... oh wait a minute... you're really not an Aussie are you? You're from Mexico right?

You're right Todd, this fish fought great... I initially thought I hooked a Smallie. One thing I should add though is that it was the SMELLIEST, SLIMIEST fish I ever caught. In the picture, you can see the slime dripping off my hands... YUCK!

Thanks again guys... this thread proved to be quite entertaining. Perhaps someone who caught some other unusual or uncommon fish in New York waters can post here and talk about it.

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by bassinbilly on 04-22-2003 06:27 PM:

omg

Hey I did something right!!!!!!!!!!

Glad I had that book

This book is pretty cool it has alot of info for fresh and salt water fishing. The costs $39.95, I bought it in the NYU hospital lobby for $15.00. When my friend was hospitalized for his diabetes.
There is a website in the book http://www.dk.com/ I guess it's the publisher.

and you are welcome Bass Dude anytime

Posted by Lpbassman on 04-22-2003 07:03 PM:

Well between all of us we certainly nipped that one in the "Ruddy" bud. Good work guys.

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Posted by sirsnagsalot on 04-22-2003 07:10 PM:

all i know .. is that shiner is beggin to be stringer rigged and live lined bwahahahha evil laugh seriously tho thats the biggest shiner ive seen. my dad and i used to catch alot of nice ones in forest city park in the late 80s early 90s...but nothin like that. i bet if u caught it on like a fly tippet you would have an igfa record. ncie crappie too

tight lines

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Posted by Iceman on 04-22-2003 08:08 PM:

more info

I've seen really red shiners like this swimming in some local lakes around here in central ny. always in the fall. always thought a red or orange rattle trap would be good then.
A Great book to get is "inland fishes of ny state. " by L cavett smith. Call your local encon office or look it up on the web. THIS IS A GREAT BOOK!!! I refer to it alot!! If you fish here in ny this is one to get!! my vote is some form of shiner. I just looked in the book and the rudd was very scarce around small waters near NYC as of 1969. just my thought. great thread by the way!!

Posted by Rob J in WNY on 04-22-2003 08:38 PM:

Tony...

You know, I didn't think about the Rudds. They were very plentiful in the channels around the Niagara River as Todd mentioned. I would imagine that fish as such, as I recall their appearance being the same as your photo.

Tight Lines...

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Posted by bigredfishing on 04-23-2003 12:35 AM:

save that rudd! they are the #1 bait for Monster channel cats, and big musky.

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Posted by fishingking on 04-23-2003 12:46 AM:

thats a big rudd....

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Posted by black lake bass on 04-23-2003 06:12 AM:

thats is a great looking fish ...

big al bowmansville ny

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Posted by Lpbassman on 04-23-2003 04:28 PM:

Is Rudd Pond (upstate NY) thusly named because it has alot of these fish in it?

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Posted by Charlie on 04-24-2003 09:06 AM:

Probably not Leigh! These fish are unusual and certainly rarely seen. Unless of course the lake was named by a homesick Brit!

Tight Lines!
Charlie

Posted by 2 Many Snags 2 on 04-27-2003 07:38 AM:

Hey guys, it`s Too Many Snags here, i was never a huge poster but some of you might remember me.....

now for the fishie....It`s most definately a rudd or crucian carp!

crucian carp are a small species of carp, and i don`t have to explain much you`re seeing one right there.

-Snags

Posted by JOHN G on 04-27-2003 08:26 AM:

Now Snags, how could we forget you? LOL....

Okay Tony, after all the BS and ballyhooing on this guessing game thread, I now pose this question to you my friend.......

BETCHA CAN'T DO IT AGAIN! NYAAHHHHHHH!!!!!

lets see another Rudd shot.....

and LP, I have often wondered about that Rudd pond, I believe our resident Machine Gunner, Pistol Pete L has fished it in the past...

JOHN G

Posted by bobn on 04-27-2003 08:40 AM:

the last time i was there (rudd) it was a salad bowl-

the only place they keep open is the beach-

they rent boats and you can trailer yours in-electric only

Posted by JOHN G on 04-27-2003 09:01 AM:

Well, Bob, when you have the Taconic permit ( for Maho), it includes access to Rudd...

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Posted by Jared C. on 04-28-2003 12:42 AM:

You have all steered wrong!

As a matter of fact, I happen to know exactly wat that fish is.....now.....you say you caught it in South Park Lake, am I correct? And the fish is fat and bulky, correct? Well, then, my only conclusion is that you have caught the rare and precious Cartman Carp! He's been know to frequent South Park Lake for a while now - since six seasons (I mean years) ago! A great way to hook into one of these babies, is to use snacky cakes and cheesy poofs on Gamakatsu hooks. And there is an old legend with thses Cartman Carps - when the ol' timers used to catch them, they would hold it up and scream, "KICK ASH!!!!" Hope this helps!

Posted by 2 Many Snags 2 on 04-28-2003 03:36 PM:

Seriously it`s a CRUCIAN CARP

Posted by Bassin Dude on 05-08-2003 07:18 AM:

The New York State DEC finally emailed me back yesterday on this fish.

It is..........

A Rudd.

But then again, you guys already told me so!

I thought you might like to know what the NY DEC said.

__________________
Tony

"That man's nuts... GRAB 'EM!"

Posted by Charlie on 05-08-2003 09:01 AM:

This has to be one of the longest running threads I can recall!

I have received many personal e-mails after I described the species of fish I used to catch in Europe which included the Rudd. One e-mail from a gentleman who was stationed in the UK either during or just after WW11 mentioned that some of the submarines were given British fish names, cool stuff.

Nice to get away from the main stream messaging once in a while.

Tight Lines!
Charlie

Posted by Donv on 05-08-2003 04:46 PM:

Interesting thread. I've fished Rudd Pond in the past, using a rowboat, and never caught any Rudd there, only LMB, some good ones, too. However, as a teenager, once while live worm fishing in the Roe Jan Kill, I did catch one of those Rudd, it looked exactly like the picture. I remember that it was a good fight, and that we thought it some type of carp. As some of you probably know, the RJ Kill and Rudd Pond are fairly close to one another. Maybe there are, or were, more of these in this general area than anyone knew about.