Posted by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:
Question regarding physical properties of water
Can water be less than 32
degrees farhenheight and NOT be frozen?
Talking fresh water no salt. I am am specifically tying to find out if water
moving in a river can be below 32 degrees & still be in a liquid state.
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Posted by theole34 on 2003 AM:
temperature is an
average. the entire area of water.. all molecules would have to be 32f or 0c. water
can remain super cooled until about 30 or 29, but will freeze very quickly
after that. keep in mind.. pure water freezes at 32f. you will never find pure
water out in the world. it should take a cooler consistent temp than 32 to
"stop a river." don't be fooled by air temp either.
not a pure scientists view, but info gathered from research and a friend.
rob
you can actually boil water in 0 pressure (vacuum or way out in space) and it
will freeze, with air temps less than 32f, so barometeric pressure is a
factor.. but to us on earth in reality it is minimal.
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
why moving water takes longer to freeze.
best written answer i have found....
"To understand this, you can think about the way water freezes. When the
water changes from a liquid to a solid, it starts in just one place, with just
a couple of water molecules getting stuck together (because they're cold and
not moving around very quickly). Then another molecule sticks to the first two.
And another one sticks to those three, and soon you end up with a huge ice
crystal that just keeps getting bigger and bigger as more water freezes onto
it.
In order for the first two water molecules to stick together, they have to be
pretty close together and not move away from each other. If the water is
standing still, this is pretty easy - as the temperature drops, the molecules
stop moving around as much, and they start sticking together. But if the water
is moving, like in a waterfall, the molecules are more likely to move away from
each other and less likely to get stuck together. So the temperature has to get
a lot lower in order for the first ice crystals to form. But once you've got
the first few, the rest will freeze more easily.
This is why they say that you should run the water in your sink (just a little)
if it gets really cold outside. If the water is running, then it's moving
through the pipes instead of sitting still. (Also, the moving water will
provide some heat that will also help prevent freezing). "
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Posted by JPBass on 2003 AM:
YES!! Moving water can
get a couple of degrees below the 32 degree mark without freezing.
Not sure if the water in your average stream or river is moving fast enough for
that to occur though??
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Posted by JPBass on 2003 AM:
OOPS. Musta been typing
at the same time. I was just going by what I remembered from science class. LOL
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Posted by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:
Theole, NYPD? You should be in National Security. With a mind like that. Thanks for the science lesson.
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Posted by bass 64 on 2003 PM:
I agree that it can get
colder without freezing. Where I have trout fished on LI the air temp was
consistently colder (0-20) degrees which led me to believe that the water temp
had to be below 32 and the only thing stopping it from freezing was the moving
water. Awesome explanation Rob!
Also to add, I was taught in high school that any non water particles in water
or a liquid delay freezing and boiling. That is why you can keep anti-freez in
your car all year long because it must be a decent amount colder and hotter to
freeze and boil than standard temps.
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Posted by JOHN G on 2003 AM:
here is some food for
thought:
one atom was talking to another atom....the first Atom said " You know, I
haven't been myself lately, I feel like I lost an electron"
the other Atom said " Are you sure?"
and the other replied " I'm Positive!"
JOHN G
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Posted by Bass Rat on 2003 AM:
quote:
Originally
posted by JOHN G
here is some food for thought:
one atom was talking to another atom....the first Atom said " You know, I
haven't been myself lately, I feel like I lost an electron"
the other Atom said " Are you sure?"
and the other replied " I'm Positive!"
JOHN G
Refer to "Ganga" post
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Posted by Pete L on 2003 AM:
quote:
Refer to "Ganga" post
LOLLOLLOL!!!!!!
Nick - John is REALLY feeling the cabin fever!!!!
Pete
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Posted by theole34 on 2003 AM:
quote:
Talking fresh water no salt. I am am specifically tying to find out if water moving in a river can be below 32 degrees & still be in a liquid state.
why do you need this info nickyT?
just curious?
robbie
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Posted by dodgeguy on 2003 PM:
nick,stick a thermometer
in the water and find out!!!
john g.,you are way out there!!!
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Posted by Bass Rat on 2003 PM:
quote:
Originally
posted by theole34
why do you need this info nickyT?
just curious?
robbie
I was thinking of making ice on a rolller coaster
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Posted by Scott E. on 2003 PM:
Physics 101
quote:
Originally
posted by bass 64
Also to add, I was taught in high school that any non water particles in
water or a liquid delay freezing and boiling. That is why you can keep anti-freez
in your car all year long because it must be a decent amount colder and hotter
to freeze and boil than standard temps.
Lets explain this first, anti-freeze contains ethylene-glycol, basically an alchohol,
alchohol has a very low freezing point but a lower boiling point than water,
now water will freeze even under pressure but takes much higher temps to boil
under pressure, the two work together to resist freezing, but remove the cap
from your radiator and drive around, you will boil the water and anti-freeze,
it is the pressure the radiator cap holds back that keeps the water from boiling.
Now the water question
Water even moving water freezes at 32 degrees centigrade or absolute zero fareinhiet,
the air temps can be well below zero centigrade, standing water will freeze
faster as it will cool to equal temps but the water in a river may not.
When any molecules move and rub together they cause friction, friction causes
heat, enough heat in water not to freeze. Remember your grammer school science
with solid liquid and gasses, solids have molecules that are so tightly packed
together they can't move, liquids have molecules that are bumping together, the
higher the temperature the more or faster they bump together, in a gascious
state the molecules expand away from one another no longer bumping together
until they cool and condensate turning back into a liquid.
The Delaware River is still not totally frozen over as of yet even with
sustained air temps for two weeks in the single digits because the water was
moving and the friction of the molecules bumping together keeping it from
freezing.
Although the particles may play a very small part in water not freezing 32
degrees is the temperature that water freezes except salt water that is because
salt water is more dense than fresh.
Say thank you Mr. Wizard
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Posted by Seth V on 2003 PM:
Actually, some particles
(non disolving) can LEAD to freezing. In order for the water to freeze, it
needs to have something to start an ice crystal on. If you want to super cool
water below 32, you can do it perfectly still (no agitation) provided it is in
a smooth container with no contaminates. Obviously this will not happen in
nature!
Scott was correct, motion of the river will not allow water to drop below 32,
rather it serves to mix the water and maintain a temperature above 32.
On a side note, products such as ethylene glycol work great as anti-freeze but
not well as a coolant, thus the need to mix with water. Never use just straight
glycol, you won't have enough heat disapation.
Seth V
Posted by theole34 on 2003 PM:
"Water even moving
water freezes at 32 degrees centigrade or absolute zero fareinhiet"
C/F confusion aside.. lol.
ok.
now explain why you can supercool water to 28f and it stays in a liquid state.
robbie
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Posted by bobn on 2003 PM:
quote:
Originally
posted by theole34
"Water even moving water freezes at 32 degrees centigrade or absolute zero
fareinhiet"
C/F confusion aside.. lol.
ok.
now explain why you can supercool water to 28f and it stays in a liquid state.
robbie
probably because it has some johnny walker black in it-bobn--2/3--4:50pm
seriously- it may have something to do with the oxygen/gas content
Posted by earthworm77 on 2003 PM:
Nick this is what I know
about water.
1- it is wet
2- it can get pretty cold
3- don't drink the water you fish in
4- it sometimes is salty
5- if you wade wet and the water is a bit on the cold side, avoid getting the
boys wet as they will shrink.
Glad I could help you out Nick
Oh yea,......flowing or current laden water doesn't nec. freeze at 32
degrees......something about the molecules bumping into each other causing
friction, in turn causing minimal heat to prevent freezing until the temp gets
even colder.
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Posted by Seth V on 2003 PM:
Another great supercooling story....
This winter, temperatures
in the Arctic will drop to as low as minus forty degrees,forcing many of the
animals that live there into a state of suspended animation, or hibernation.
The arctic ground squirrel, curled in a ball, eyes shut tight, adopt the lowest
body temperature ever measured in a mammal. It's actually below freezing; it'll
drop to minus two, minus three degrees Celsius. Temperatures in which their
blood freezes, if you take it that low in a test tube, but inside the animal,
it stays unfrozen.
Brian Barnes is an Associate Professor of Zophysiology with the Institute of Arctic Biology at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks.
"As the animal supercools, a condition that simply means a fluid that's
below freezing point, the temperature should freeze, but it doesn't. Sometimes
you'll see this in your own freezer, if you put a cup of water with a
thermometer, you'll see it drop below freezing, yet ice won't form until you
either hit it, or, better yet, drop a little piece of ice to seed the
crystallization of the water into ice in which case, it happens just like that,
as the supercool liquid crystallizes into ice. That'll happen in the Arctic
ground squirrel if their skin gets penetrated by an icicle or something frozen,
which'll kick off the freezing process. But this typically doesn't happen. It's
well known that lots of insects and some amphibia supercool, but the arctic
ground squirrel on the tundra of Alaska is the first mammal ever to be shown to
supercool like that."
Posted by theole34 on 2003 PM:
the articles i have read
on supercooling of water are pretty dead set on this being a phenom. they are
not 100% sure on all the facts. the one fact is that if supercooled to a
certain point the water will spontaneously freeze... thus causing an audible
bang.
that would really suck for the suirrel!! hey its really cold in here.. BANG!!! your
dead.
robbie
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Posted by bobn on 2003 PM:
hell-super cool aint nothing new-i've had women do that to me!-and some of them probably wished that "bang i was dead"-bobn--2/3--9:10pm
Posted by bass 64 on 2003 PM:
Wow, Scott set me straight!LOL
I'm curious if he knows about supercooling. He's pretty smart for a guy from
PA.
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Posted by Scott E. on 2003 PM:
Ooops MY Bad
quote:
Originally
posted by theole34
"Water even moving water freezes at 32 degrees centigrade or absolute
zero fareinhiet"
C/F confusion aside.. lol.
ok.
now explain why you can supercool water to 28f and it stays in a liquid state.
Robbie,
I hate the metric system they made it just to confuse us Americans
, or at least me. yes, I goofed that
up real good!!!
Check this article out on supercooled water and winter rainbows,
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/748.html
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Posted by Scott E. on 2003 PM:
quote:
Originally
posted by bass 64
I'm curious if he knows about supercooling. He's pretty smart for a guy from
PA.
What do you think, I don't spend my time sitting in my car on the countries
second biggest parking lot, the L.I.E.
Besides I didn't live in PA all my life just the past 4 months
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Posted by theole34 on 2003 PM:
the temps i have read
about are really low... -40f being high. these guys are trying to find exact
phys properties of water, and say it is eluding them all. the finder of an
absolute chartable properties will change science forever.
robbie
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